Erica: Welcome to the Executive Function Brain trainer podcast. I'm Dr. Erica Warren.
Darius: And I'm Darius Nomduron. And we're your hosts.
Erica: Hey, Darius. It's great to see you.
Darius: Great to see you, Erica as well. How are you?
Erica: I'm good. And I'm super excited about this because, you know, for as long as I've been an educational therapist, the issue of motivation comes up all the time. And I really feel like motivation is a myth. I don't think motivation is ever the issue. I think it's executive functioning. So I think we should talk about the executive functioning motivation myth. What do you think?
Darius: Great. Sounds good. Motivation.
Erica: Yep. So I would like to start off with kind of the idea of the paradox. Why we can sometimes do something that's really difficult, really challenging, but interesting. But when it is really easy or. And just not enticing. Right.
Darius: So we've got, something in front of us. We suddenly get highly motivated, whether it's easy or hard, and then something that is really easy to do. But we aren't motivated.
Erica: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we are. We're saying it's an issue of motivation.
Darius: Yes.
Erica: And I want to riff on the question of, is it motivation? And if it's not motivation, what is it? Because I think it's something that we, throw at each other all the time. You know, you're not motivated or why aren't you motivated? And let's. Let's sort this out, because I think that when we look at it that way, it's very hard to solve the problem.
Darius: Yeah. And if we ground it in real life, you know, this is very typical with teenagers. For example, you know, you can say to, let's say a boy, you know, hey, you can spend hours on your Pokémon Go cards and reading through the challenges and things like that. Why can't you just read this book? Or why can't you just do this homework or whatever? You've got enough attention and focus to get that done. Why. Why don't you come and do it over here? Obviously, it's because you've got bad motivation or you're not motivated enough or whatever. And really, we're getting to the hub of that sort of dynamic, right.
Erica: Well, and what we're doing is we're telling people what they are, right?
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: We're saying you're not motivated. So we're saying that's the problem. You just need to be motivated. And maybe, maybe that's the overarching issue, but it isn't necessarily the solution.
Darius: The other way of phrasing this is like you're being lazy, you know, because you can be. You can be careless or not motivated or lazy. Either way, it's the same outcome. You have chosen not to do this. It's a choice. So I suppose isn't at the heart of this that you've basically made a choice. Motivation is a choice.
Erica: Or is it just that the people around you are shaming you?
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: And shame is never motivating.
Darius: Okay, so we've got an idea of what's happening on the outside. Executive functions, what have they got to do with motivation? low motivation, high motivation.
Erica: I think executive functions has to do with the solution. That's what I want to riff about. And, and I think that what people tend to say is, if something is important enough, we should be able to make ourselves do it. That's kind of. That's the shaming mentality of, you know, why can't you do it? You should be able to do it if you're motivated enough.
Darius: Yeah, yeah.
Erica: You know, and I think, and interestingly enough, that is such an unmotivating thing to say.
Darius: Yes.
Erica: You know what I mean? It almost welcomes passive aggressive behavior.
Darius: Yes. And if you don't know better as a child or a young person, let's say, if we're talking a teenager, even a partner, you internalize it. And once you start internalizing and accepting that that is true and you've not addressed the underlying stuff.
Erica: Yeah, yeah.
Darius: Because let's say, for example, you do want to do it and you're being told you don't want to do it. And okay, you do want to do it and you're not doing it. That's what we're talking about. In simple terms, you do want to do it, but you're not doing it. Someone says that you obviously don't want to do this because you're not doing it. And then you internalize that and you say, I'm doing it because I'm unmotivated, or I'm lazy or I don't care or whatever. And then your system reacts with the four Fs. You know, fight flight, freeze. Or Fawn, you know, the actual medical for we talk about fight flight,
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Darius: but there's, you know, freeze and there's Fawn. And, you know, we can just fight back. No, I'm angry, you know, or you can freeze and you go, I don't know. Or you can, run away. You just go into your room, slam the door, whatever, and just withdraw or get distracted. Is a form of running away, or you fawn and you just go, oh, I'm so sorry. And you just try and be good and try and do this and try and do everything right and so on, but you still don't do it. And, the thing is, often it's because there's something stopping you being able to do it that is invisible. And I think that's where you're going to get to here, Erica, isn't it? I don't know.
Erica: Well, I'm guessing we're going to travel this path together, as whether I want to go in a certain direction or not, we just pull each other in different ways. That creates a new path. but I do think that motivation gives us a reason to act, but executive functioning keeps us moving in action. So I think that executive functioning definitely gives us the confidence and the tools to accomplish the things that are not motivating.
Darius: Yeah. And, you know, so let's get into the nub of it and executive functions because basically one of the most motivating things there is in life is making progress. And the moment you make some sort of progress, you go, there's that feedback loop, you know, a little thing of dopamine, a little bit of self-confidence, a little bit of satisfaction. Something significant has been done. And often I keep quoting Bible verses, it keeps coming back to me. Was it, hope deferred makes the heart grow sick. And so it's like you hope for something, and every time something you hope for gets pushed back and pushed back, it makes your heart sick. And so sometimes this, in the microcosm, you hope you'll do it, you want to do it, you know, but then you can't really do it for some reason. So your hope for getting it done gets pushed back, and then it gets pushed back, and then your heart gets sick and you go, I can't do this or I'm not going to do this. You don't understand what's going on. And so you react in these four Fs, you know, reactive way.
Erica: And I like what you're saying, because we're really starting to explore what gets in the way.
Darius: Yes.
Erica: And let's explore that some more, because I think that's the first step to finding the solution.
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: Is, you know, yes. Overwhelm.
Darius: Yeah. There are hidden barriers. We all experience these hidden barriers. And basically executive function helps us, see those barriers and equips us to overcome barriers and especially metacognition. And it's interesting, Erica, I was doing some research this week for Ivy. And we're going to be developing a product for schools and teachers in particular
Erica: and tell people what Ivy is for those that don't know.
Darius: Oh, yes, I should. Yes. So Ivy is the tool that we make for people with dyslexia and adhd, executive function, people who think differently and visually and creatively. Basically, it records, a meeting, turns it, into a transcript. And then that transcript becomes a real time mind map. And so you've got a visual organizer in front of you of the information with keywords and branches and connections that's connected to the transcript and connected to the audio. So everything is connected. So if you want to revisit it and re listen, you can. And it shows you where you are you in the transcript and it shows you where you are in the map. If you want to look at the map and review it as a big picture, but then go down into detail, you've got the audio and the text. So it's this sort of three modes of thinking in one. Visual, written and auditory. And the reason why we're thinking about it for schools is for teachers. You know, often you think that it's the students that need assistive technology, but actually I have a theory and that is that a teacher, often the most valuable thing they give in a class is that verbal feedback or that verbal instruction. And it's that sort of explicit instructions. You know, here's a worksheet that you've got to do and there's five steps to it, but actually there's more like 15 steps. You know, it's five main steps and there's like micro steps. And the teacher instinctively goes, right, here's your worksheet and remember when you get to point one, to really focus in on doing this and doing
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Darius: that. Okay? And then when you get to the third point, do this and do that and remember to do this. And when you go into the software, do that and so on and all those practical little procedural steps and so on. Okay, class, you got that? That's great. Yeah, yeah, off you go. We'll spend the next 20 minutes on this and off you go. And all those people who've got a working memory that can hold all that, or they're not feeling anxious or not had their attention distracted with adhd, I
Erica: have one of those brains that can organize all that information and visualize it or create a mental mind map. But for those that don't, they get lost.
Darius: Yes. So get the overwhelm. Yeah, they do. And what they do, and we all know this I've got dyslexia and adhd and I knew it as a kid. You then up putting your hand up again, say oh miss, could you say that again? I didn't quite get it. And you wait 15 minutes until she gets to you and then you've got five minutes left of the project and you're always behind. And that's 20% of the class who have got send special education needs and disabilities in the UK that's what we call it or ASN additional support needs in Scotland. And what happens is that all compounds where the child is always being left behind. So my theory is if the teacher can capture that verbal instruction immediately, just hit a button and it captures it for those one or two or three minutes, not the whole lesson, not like they do at university where you capture the whole transcript. Just like Ivy Dictate is the working title at the moment. It might be something different when we actually do it but just dictate what you're saying and then immediately it's saved for the student on their device in their Classroom or SharePoint or Google Classroom and they can re listen to it as many times as they like or reread it if they like reading it. Some people with autism just are like just tell me exactly what it is and read it carefully, forensically and then they've got it. Or they might be very big picture and like the graphic organizer and see everything simultaneously rather than sequentially. It just depends even in what mood you're in. I mean some people are like.
Erica: Or even color coding.
Darius: Yes.
Erica: You know, and I know that Ivy does that too. So you know, it separates different ideas in color. And some people, that's just how they process it, creates that.
Darius: Oh yes, it's the chunking.
Erica: I get it. Chunking now I hear it. Now I can make sense of it. It's all about. It's a multi-processing platform.
Darius: Absolutely. But the reason why I brought it up was not to pitch Ivy per se, which very welcome to try out as a free trial and all that jazz, is that when I was researching this for schools is we've got this organization called the Education Endowment foundation (EEF) that is really important in the UK. What they do is they take all this meta-analysis of research, pull it together so that it's really straightforward to teachers to know whether something's evidence based or not. Now the relevance of this Erica, is that they measure it. The number one thing that pops out on all of this is metacognition. According to the EEF Metacognition and teachers working on metacognition in school has the number one highest return on effort. And the way they measure it is interesting. So what they do is they translate all of the academic results into how many plus months it gives a student in their learning. So if you bring in an intervention like I'm going to use this laptop, you know, it might give you plus one month in the year, or I use speech to text, it might give you plus two months in the year, etc. And their normal max is like plus three or four months in the year. I mean you spent a whole year doing a certain intervention as part of normal class, not as a special extra. It gives plus three- or four-years metacognition. Plus years. I mean months, three or four months after that year is in terms of acceleration in their educational journey. Metacognition plus eight months for every year that it's used. Isn't that incredible? That is. And you know that we know that that's what we're talking about all the time.
Erica: It's an executive functioning tool. Metacognition is right under inhibitory control. It enables us to control our attention. And now I'd like to bring in the possibility of maybe it helps us control our motivation.
Darius: Exactly, indeed. Exactly that. And so what we've got here is invisible barriers that
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Darius: people face, child, young person, adult, that once they think about their thinking, metacognition, they start to identify, oh gosh, whenever I do this, I do tend to freeze, or I do tend to fly away or hide away from it. Why? And then when they do that, that metacognition is often understanding executive functions. Like actually it often comes down to two things. I have difficulty processing it or I
Erica: have difficulty thinking of the cognitive flexibility. I'm just, stuck. I'm just stuck. I can't think of another way of handling this or doing.
Darius: It's processing or it's executive function one or the other. And sometimes with dyslexia, for example, it's just bare bones process. I find the process really hard or, or it's a reading process or an auditory process or some other process. But then there are other executive function processes. But that's executive functions that unlock you.
Erica: They're strategies, they're tools. They're tools that unlock you. Right. If you're overwhelmed by all of the stuff coming at you, you can sequence it, you can create a mind map, you can, so there are many different things that you can do. And I think that's what executive functioning does, is it teaches kids about, and adults about the tools that they have and how to use them. You know, the tools within working memory, your inner voice and visualization. You know, many people don't realize that it's a tool that you can utilize. And maybe, you know, the tool of the inner voice has just become this shaming, shaming tool. But it doesn't have to be. It can be an encouraging tool. It can be a memory tool. It can be. And teaching people about the tools that they have, because if you don't know that you have a tool, you're not going to use it.
Darius: And I suppose what we're getting to now is when you've got these hidden barriers, if you deal with the barrier rather than the motivation, suddenly the student becomes motivated because they're like, let's pick an example, Erica, to work through. Give me an example that you've maybe worked through at the moment of a student.
Erica: I have a list of. A list of things that gets in the way, and I'll let you pick. One could be overwhelmed. Perfectionism, ambiguity, boredom, fear, low energy, or too many choices. Which one pops out at you?
Darius: I think we should just. Let's. Let's just go through them and then we'll discover something. So what you're basically saying is they are all invisible barriers that basically kill motivation in its tracks. And it's not. Or not kill it in its tracks but reduce it for certain. For me, most of them would kill it in its tracks. And then you blame it on motivation rather than on the thing that's hidden that caused it.
Erica: That's right. That's right.
Darius: Let's go through it.
Erica: And a way to get through it is executive functioning. So overwhelm. If you're overwhelmed, that could absolutely impact motivation. And how would you get through that? You would get through it through strategies. You might use Ivy. Ivy might handle your auditory overwhelm and give you a visual mind map.
Darius: Well, I think the three areas of working memory, inhibitory control and cognitive flexibility. Working memory is very tied to overwhelm in that often. I've seen it with adults a lot. They've got so much going on in their mind. Their working memory is completely maxed out on all sorts of things. They're thinking about their child, they're thinking about a health issue, they're thinking about what they've got to get done. And then they come into a meeting, and they've only got one or two units of their working memory left out of five to seven, let's say Depending on the person. And then they get overwhelmed. And often what happens is. And you can see it, I do this, I watch it. Okay. When you're having a conversation with someone and you don't write things down on a whiteboard or diagram or are, looking at some sort of reference, you can tell when the person gets overwhelmed. And I don't mean I'm so stressed out and overwhelmed. You can just see that they're starting to go round and round in circles because they're juggling. Oh, you said this, we're talking about this. We said that. But the moment you get, a time planner out like a calendar, they don't think about those dates. Oh yes, that Monday, that Tuesday, that, that three weeks’ time. Yeah, yeah. And immediately the working memory's been externalized and anchored in that external visual. And then they get out of this overwhelm loop. And I've seen it in people when you're having a conversation, you can see. And it happens a lot with me and my wife when she's talking about plans and then she'll say, she'll give me the hint. You don't seem very motivated about this. Actually, it's, it's not that I'm not motivated.
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Darius: I'm lost and I'm overwhelmed.
Erica: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see that all the time with kids. And you know, you can even see it where a kid might be accused of not being motivated. And maybe they have auditory processing disorder and they're concentrating so hard, but they're missing every other word you're saying. I can think about a situation where I was in a busy, coffee house the other day and I was really struggling m listening to somebody because there was so much external noise and I was catching like every other word and then all of your cognitive energy. So it could be cognitive and attention. And attention is going to. Trying to piecemeal what they're saying with just hearing a few of the words. So yeah, I mean, so overwhelm. Overwhelm is just when your system is. It could be that you're thinking about too much. It could be that you're just not able to pull in the information from your environment or enough of it to make sense of it. Right?
Darius: Yeah. Yeah.
Erica: So there it's. I think you're right. We, I think working memory is very important. We've also got inhibitory control, which is the attention piece in this example, of the. And then the cognitive flexibility. Right?
Darius: Yeah. The cognitive flexibility is maybe not so obvious here because you're feeling Overwhelmed. And, cognitive flexibility is contributing often, would you say? It's often because the person is maybe fixed on something else and they're like, yeah, but we've not sorted this yet. We've not sorted this yet. We've not sorted this yet. And I can't move on to that because we've not started this yet.
Erica: Yeah, it could definitely be that they're stuck in transition, or they're not even transitioned. They haven't even transitioned yet. But it could also be that they're stuck on an idea. But that's not what I think. I think you're supposed to do it this way, not that. No, no, no, no, no, no. Don't tell me another way to do it. I need to do it this way because I learned it this way. And if you show me another way, I'm going to get even more confused. I'm going to get even more overwhelmed.
Darius: All right? And in that scenario, this way is the way that's not working. And so they're not motivated because they're like, it's not working. I've just got to try harder. And your kind of coming along and saying, well, actually, let's try a little bit smarter or bit different and you'll get through it, you know, and they're
Erica: just like, no, no, no, no, no, don't change it, don't change it. I just finally think I might have got it. And now if you change it, it's going to be the overwhelming, you know? So, yeah, all right, so we've talked a lot about overwhelm. Let's talk a little bit about perfectionism. Ooh, it's a gift and it's a bear. You know, it can be so difficult to be perfectionistic. As. As one student that I worked with that was very perfectionistic is he said, well, there's nowhere to go but down. And ah. When I said, hey, you're a perfectionist, aren't you? And he said, no, but I'm trying to be. And I was like, oh, my God. That's the definition of perfectionism. But. But perfectionism is really, really tough on the person that's a perfectionist because it's never good enough. And yeah, that can definitely impact motivation. You definitely. Motivation to let it go or to move on or to turn in the assignment because you're like, no, no, no, no, no. I just.
Darius: Or even do it one more time. You're presuming they've been perfectionist enough to do it, but then not submit it. Yeah. Which Happens. But some people are like, the only way is down. I'm not even going to start because it's not going to be good enough.
Erica: Absolutely. Yeah. That's a tough one. Sponsored by the Executive Functioning Coaching Assessment. A, quick online assessment that uncovers challenges and develops personalized strategies for success.
Darius: Sponsored by Ivy. Imagine turning your meeting's audio into a live mind map instantly so you remember what matters. Well, try Ivy for free now at, Ivy App. That's I V, V I App.
Erica: All right, let's go on Ambiguity. You know, when you get, you get, you're in a situation and you're like, wait, I don't really understand what they want.
Darius: You know, this is the world of dyslexia. You know, dyslexia when it comes to long. Well, to questions, whether they're really long and complicated or whether really short. So sometimes, you know, you give a person with dyslexia, or even ADHD
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Darius: a short question. What happens is it's like speaking to somebody with a wide-angle lens. They expand the scope of the question immediately, unconsciously, to imagine that the question is not a simple, straightforward question. It's much bigger because they think bigger all the time and so they expect that that's what's, at the heart of the question. Whereas somebody is just asking for a simple question. And so for them, there's ambiguity because the person is asking a very simple, clear question, but then the person hearing it is not quite sure what's meant to be done. I'll give you an example. The teacher says, I want you to write a paragraph on this when you go home tonight and bring it in tomorrow, okay? She's thinking, right, they'll bang that out in five, 10 minutes. You know, person with dyslexia, first of all finds it hard writing text, but they're also thinking, oh, a paragraph. And, they're kind of like, oh, but I need to say this, I need to say that I need to say this, I need to say that. And it goes from a paragraph to a page to a page and a half. And it's a page and a half paragraph, you know, but it's kind of like, I don't really know what I'm meant to be.
Erica: Yeah. what does she want?
Darius: Saying what does she want? Yeah, that's exactly. I mean, something that I use as an example sometimes is like in art and. Or in English, sometimes you're given a picture, okay. And it's like in the UK; you get Given a picture. And it says, describe the picture. Oh, my goodness me. Describe the picture. Okay, so there's a pathway going down some hedgerows on a road, and there's a mountain behind it. And it's kind of summary. All right, describe it. Well, describe it as an architect. Describe it as a road engineer. Describe it as a horticulturalist. Describe it as a storyteller. A horror movie. What on earth do you mean? There's so many possibilities; I don't know where to start. And, that's expanding the scope, isn't it?
Erica: Well, you know, this is the thing, is there's some people just that need very explicit.
Darius: Explicit.
Erica: Explicit structure.
Darius: Yes.
Erica: And when they have that, they're motivated. All of a sudden, they're motivated. The ambiguity. I have. I have a student that I. I worked with last year when. When the teacher just said, oh, you can write about anything you want.
Darius: Oh, my goodness.
Erica: Oh, that is just. For some kids, that's joy. And for other kids, that's a nightmare. Ambiguity is, Is. Is what undermines motivation. So let's move on to boredom.
Darius: Interesting.
Erica: It's such a boring topic. I don't want to write about that. You know, sometimes I have students that. Boys that are reading about a little girl from the turn of the 19th century, and they just can't relate to it at all, and they're not motivated to read the story. I mean, that makes sense, because what part of what's motivating is something that's relational? And if you can't relate to it at all, that could be pretty boring. But it's funny. People use that word all the time and I don't. I'm never bored. Part of me would love to be bored, you know, because that would say I don't have anything to do and I always have things to do. But, yes, that. I hear that from kids all the time. It's so boring. Well, because we haven't helped them connect to it. You know, what. Find what's the connection. What's the connection? What's the value?
Darius: Okay, so what's in it for them? Yeah, yeah, is one way of saying it. It's like, yeah, I'm doing this for you or whatever, but for me, there's no real interest or value in it. What's in it for me? Or. Okay, so that statement could be also. Flight, escape. Oh, ah, that's boring. You know, so they could just be being defensive because of all the other reasons we've explained. So it could just be them brushing it away with an excuse like, oh, it's boring. I'm not interested in that, that's stupid, or whatever. Whereas actually what they're saying is, I'm overwhelmed, I'm confused. I don't know what actually is meant to be happening. I don't think I'll be good at that. Someone's going to criticize me, I'm going to try really hard, and then I'll be blamed for not being good enough, etc. It's not really. It's not a real reason.
Erica: It's like motivation. Yeah, it's a fake reason. And so is boredom. there's something behind the boredom.
Darius: yeah.
Erica: Yeah, I
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Erica: think you're right. Well, let's. Let's take on fear. Oh, I'm so afraid I'm going to fail the test, you know, or I'm afraid that I'm. I'm afraid that even studying isn't going to help.
Darius: Well, what do they say the two things we're motivated by are Pain and pleasure. If you really want to motivate someone, you need to either save them a lot of pain or give them a lot of pleasure. One. One or the other. They're. They're highly motivating things. So what we've been talking about here is the pleasure of getting a job done. You know, there's four steps to this. And you realize there's no way I'm going to get to step three because something in step two is going to get in my way. I mean, this is why we, with dyslexia and ADHD hate filling in forms. It's not actual filling in the form. It's often, my goodness, it's going to ask me for a bit of information I don't know or don't remember or can't write or whatever. And then it's just going to be so irritating and frustrating, I might as well just not start because it's wasted effort. And so you just put it off. That's a perfect example. You know, I'm motivated to fill in the form, but there's such a load of activities that I know it's not going to get finished. And so it's that confidence that you're going to actually get something done and finished and a result without wasting your effort that gives you pleasure. You know, finishing a job, the pleasure of finishing a step or a job, and then the pain, you know, the pain avoidance, you know, avoiding pain. It's like, gosh, this is going to save me a lot of pain is something that motivates us. But having. Facing pain is demotivating.
Erica: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Darius: knowing you can overcome pain is very motivating because you're like, oh, great, I'd like to get this pain out my head. I'm going to get this done and out. But if you don't think you can face the pain and deal with it, then what do you do? You push it away.
Erica: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All right, let's do low energy. I have that. I have students that just say to me, oh, I can't do this. I'm so sorry. Spent. You know, they just finished a full day of school and they don't. Don't have the cognitive capacity. They're. They're their engines, you know, running on low and they, they just, they need to reboot. They are just. They're done. They're cooked. You know, there's a.
Darius: There's a lot to that, isn't there?
Erica: Yeah. Well, and it's interesting. When we have low energy, we tend to backpedal. We just don't have the emotional regulation.
Darius: Right.
Erica: We tend to become less regulated. A lot of things kind of go awry when we're really low energy.
Darius: This kind of makes me think about, in my case, adhd. You and me, over the course of this podcast, over years, have been talking about me and adhd, haven't we? So we've been through the phase where I'm kind of like, I think I might be a little bit adhd, as well as dyslexic. And, Erica, you've been going, yeah, you've been one of those friends, you know, when your friends. When someone in a friend group goes, I went and I found out that I think I've got adhd. And everyone goes, well, yeah, you know, and you're always the last to know, you know, because you're looking from the inside out, aren't you? And everything just seems normal. Whereas they've got a point of reference of what you're doing compared to what everyone else is doing. But I noticed this, and I resisted medication for years because I thought executive functions were enough, and I thought work strategies were enough. And, you know, they're really important. And I think you do as much as you can. And then when you've reached your limits, you start saying, I need some extra help. And that's what I did. And I've got more energy. I'm not so exhausted at the end of the day.
Erica: Are you taking medication?
Darius: I am, yeah. I've been taking it for a year.
Erica: M. That's awesome. What are you taking? Do you mind me asking?
Darius: I. Yeah, don't mind. I take Vivance, which is the British version of it. What do you call it in America?
Erica: I'm not sure. Maybe Ritalin. Is that the one that you're. No.
Darius: So I take Vivance. And I take Amphetamine. Ah.
Erica: I'm assuming that they're both, They're probably both, amphetamine.
Darius: based.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah.
Darius: It's been a, ah, fascinating journey because you could look at me and say, he's unmotivated, whereas I'm actually a very motivated person. But not when you look at me sometimes, you know?
Erica: Right. You might appear unmotivated when in fact. Or you are low energy.
Darius: Yes. And it really can be affected by adhd.
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Erica: Well, let's go into the last one because I know we're running into a time constraint. Too many choices. Too many choices. I think goes back to the overwhelm. I think if you start to pull the overwhelm apart, it's all about too many choices.
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: Do you agree?
Darius: Agree.
Erica: So I want to go on to what? Help. helps us to activate. Right. Interest, Novelty. Right. Urgency, challenge, meaning reward, Accountability. For some people, it's a connection. Some people just, need to be connecting with other people, and that's what's motivating. They don't want to do their work alone. They want to have some. Some. They want to have the company of someone else. Or maybe it's that they're verbal processors and they just need to have someone there so that they can think out loud and have a dialogue.
Darius: Yeah, it's. It's interesting what you just said there. Okay. I think we could just look at that. You said they like being with people, and then you said because of the verbal processing or whatever.
Erica: Yeah, it could be. It could just be that the company.
Darius: Yeah. But often we say, oh, they just like being with people. Well, then it's like, well, you just wanting to be with people. Just decide to do it without them and get on with it. But actually, often underneath these instincts, oh, I just like being with people. Oh, I just like drawing things on the boards or doodling things. I just like talking through things or I just like making things. You know, these are all different ways of processing information that we've been talking about over the years. And. And they're not just small preferences. They are.
Erica: They're vital.
Darius: They're often this unconscious competence in a certain area that you gravitate to because for some reason Whenever you do that, it works. And that's, that's really important. So it's interesting what you just said there because some people would just say to themselves, oh, I just like being with people, you know, and it seems like a little small personal preference. Actually, it's not. It's probably a foundational, critical part of you getting stuff done.
Erica: Yeah, yeah.
Darius: And not to be dismissed. And often we're a bit dismissive of, oh, they just like being with people. But yeah, yeah, ignore that. Let's just crack on and do it. And actually, someone you often the metacognition, you think about your way of thinking- you have that self-awareness enough to say, actually I do need to do this with someone, otherwise it's not going to get done.
Erica: Right, right. Well, and this really segues into one of my babies, my m. big projects, which is the 12 ways of processing. Because it's something. I think it's vital for teachers and for practitioners to know how somebody processes. Because if you know how someone processes, then you can accommodate. You know how to turn them on. Right. You know how to, to help them to process the best that they, they can and in their comfort zone. And when you do that too, you connect with them and they like you because you get them. Right. So I offer the Student Processing Inventory, which is an assessment that tells you your way of processing or your student's way of processing. And I think it's vital for the teacher to understand their way of processing because that's what they're going to push on their students.
Darius: Actually, I've been thinking about this quite a lot. I think about universal design a lot now. You know, what is universal design in a classroom? Universal provision, a way of doing something so that everyone in the group can have independent access to that knowledge and information. And if you do have these 12 different ways of processing and you don't just have one, you have a set of them. You know, someone is very, I would say I'm very simultaneous. I like seeing everything, the big picture at once. I like doing it in a group. I, I like prototyping things. I like discussing things with other people. I like doing things socially. I like things being very verbal. So those would be a whole range of different processing styles that I like. But a teacher, and in a way a teacher needs to communicate in such a way that all of those are encompassed. It's not as hard as you think, you know, when you're dividing them into 12. But the student often needs to be much more self-aware and realize I really do need to get this down as a mind map. For me, I have to mind map everything important. Otherwise I just don't get it, you know, and I wish, I wish I could get away with just reading something or you know, speaking about it. But I have to
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Darius: visualize it. I have to move things around. I have to sort of see the connections and keywords and just strip it down. But that's. And it's helpful for other people, but it's absolutely essential for me. And so once people start to realize what's actually absolutely essential for them, they can take ownership of that.
Erica: Absolutely. And I think, yeah. So whether you're taking the Spy or the YPPPI, which is for adults, it helps you to figure out what your way of processing is. But I think it's wonderful to look at family profiles because again, parents are always going to push their way of processing because it worked for them. But if you want to see what your kids way of processing is, then you can accommodate them. And then all of a sudden, ah, they're motivated. What do you know? You just, you weren't helping them to move through it in a way that was the way they process. So yeah, that's another way that, another tool, an assessment that you can use to figure out how somebody processes. Because maybe that's what it comes down to is, is really allowing people to process in their comfort zone. Because when they're able to process the way they process, they're not going to get as overwhelmed, they're not going to get as bored, their energy level will be more accommodating. But I also want to do a shout out to NoteBookLM because just as Ivy will allow you to reprocess information, NoteBookLM is genius at that because you can take the content of a lecture or a PowerPoint or a video or an audio or your notes and throw it into NoteBookLM and it will allow you to reprocess it in different ways. You can listen to a podcast, you can, you can create a video. They now have these little video shorts that they do that summarize that are just adorable. I did one yesterday, I was like, wow, I love this. they have mind maps that then take you back into all the information but show you where to find it. They also have, it'll generate multiple choice tests or flashcards, and they have two visual ones that I really, really like that I use a lot. They have an infographic that just does a big summary, but it's like a drawing and you can Tell it what you want, what colors, how flowy you want it. They can make it out of Lego people or whatever you choose. And then. And then they can do slide decks as well. So I really teach a lot of my students to throw their stuff in there, particularly if they have a teacher where they're not feeling motivated and they can kind of, it enables you to reprocess it in a way that is palatable. Yeah.
Darius: Fantastic.
Erica: And what does this all come back to? Motivation. How do we motivate? Let's make things more palatable. And I think what I love about this whole conversation is that what we've really kind of, what we've discovered is kind of the key is, And I wasn't expecting this, that processing, if you're accommodating a person's comfortable way to process, they're more likely to be motivated.
Darius: Yeah. I think, on a higher level even, I think I would boil it down to when you're blaming motivation, first look to see if there are invisible barriers. And those invisible barriers often break down into two areas. Difficulty with processing or difficulty with the executive functions. And those two areas are key. You know, it could be that they're just not managing to process information and therefore they're overwhelmed, and that ties into the working memory. Or it could be that they just don't know where to focus. They don't know what the next step is. They can't go through that sequential because the steps are too big. They need it broken down into smaller chunks. or maybe they need to do it in a different form, factor in a group or visually or whatever like you're talking about with NoteBookLM. But the bottom line is, instead of blaming someone internally or explicitly for not being motivated enough, look at the invisible barriers.
Erica: Yes. And, if it's. If that's overwhelming for you, then get an executive functioning coach.
Darius: Yes. Yes.
Erica: Executive functioning coaching is fabulous. I do it myself. I know Darius does it.
Darius: Well, I don't do it anymore. I don't have a time to do it anymore.
Erica: Unfortunately, you're good at it too. But yeah. So executive functioning coaching is brilliant. And even if I don't have time, I have a whole referral network of individuals that I can send people to.
Darius: It's great. I mean, I think that whole tying it back down to the evidence of the Education Endowment foundation
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Darius: in the UK metacognition is increasing a whole student's year by plus eight months. And that is basically coming down to exactly what we're saying. Metacognition is identifying what those invisible barriers are for you, using your thinking about thinking to find them, to use the tools that you've got in your thinking toolkit to overcome anything that's in your way and get to those goals. You know, setting goals, identifying processes, all the things that we all know that are involved in executive functions and metacognition.
Erica: And I can't help but think that if we expanded metacognition, the training of metacognition to also emotional regulation and attention and your inner voice and visualization, and spatialization and cognitive flexibility, that if we gave children access to all of those tools. Yeah, learning would be a blast.
Darius: It would. Yeah.
Erica: And, please, if you're a teacher, give your students options. You know, you're really just trying to measure whether they learned the content, right? So allow them to show you in creative ways in ways that are fun for them, because then they're going to be motivated to do the assignment.
Darius: I'll make a shout out to teachers as well. Then I would say, as a teacher, whenever you're giving verbal instructions, leave a footprint of it. Write it down while you're talking on a whiteboard or on their notebook, talk and draw at the same time. Record the feedback you're giving. So whatever. So that the student can revisit that and think through, and they can take individual access to it. Responsibility. Oh, she said step one. She said that. That's actually a step. That's actually a step. That's actually a step. And they can work that out if they're giving those materials. But just saying it over and over again often is not enough. And it wastes a lot of teacher time, creates frustration. And the teacher can view it as that student's not motivated. Could be an invisible barrier.
Erica: And if you're a teacher, and that's not easy for you, get Ivy, because Ivy will create the mind map for you. Because maybe you broke it down into six steps. But as you said earlier, Darius, maybe there are micro steps that need to be explicitly mapped out for some individuals and Ivy will do that for you.
Darius: Well, we're hoping that Ivy will do that. It can do it in the classroom. And we want to make Ivy available to everyone in the class so that those one or two minutes, or they can just capture them. But even if you don't have Ivy right now, go capture it so you can put it into a NoteBookLM, you know, so you've got the audio, you've got something to put in there rather than just your failing memory because you got overwhelmed.
Erica: Yeah.
Darius: Technology.
Erica: Technology. And you can look at some of ours. Or listen to some of our other podcasts where we talk about how it can help with working memory and such. We've got a lot of great content here for you to. To mine through.
Darius: Until next time. Erica, that's been great. I know you've got a session. You've got a pupil, a, student coming in soon, so we better.
Erica: Actually, I'm going to. It's my time. I'm going to garden.
Darius: It's your time. Okay, great.
Erica: It's my replenishing time.
Darius: Great.
Erica: So, anyway, it's always a pleasure, Darius, and, until next time.
Darius: See ya.
Erica: Bye.
Darius: Bye.
Erica: Sponsored by learningspecialistcourses.com Courses and resources that support educators and coaches.
Darius: Sponsored by Ivy. Imagine turning your meeting's audio into a live mind map instantly so you remember what matters. Well, try Ivy for free now at Ivy App. that's IVVI App. Thank you for joining us at the Executive Function Brain Trainer podcast.
Erica: Check out our show notes for links and resources and follow us on social media.
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