Brain Trainer, Episode 101 Cognitive Flexibility and AI
Erica: Welcome to the Executive Function Brain Trainer Podcast. I'm Dr. Erica Warren.
Darius: And I'm Darius Namdaran, and we're your hosts. Hey, Erica, how you doing?
Erica: Hey, Darius. Nice to see you. I'm excited about our topic today. I think it's a spin-off of our last conversation, where we were talking about how interesting it would be to talk about AI and cognitive flexibility.
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: And just to give a little bit of a backstory here for those that don't know a whole lot about executive functioning. Executive functioning is made up of, three key areas. Working memory, inhibitory control, and cognitive flexibility. And we wanted to kind of. Because we started to see how AI can really do some interesting things to support cognitive flexibility. And, Yeah, so let's do a deep dive into that. And I guess first let's. Should we define cognitive flexibility?
Darius: Yeah, I think it's just quite interesting to sort of think about cognitive flexibility before we define it in terms of how it's kind of sometimes a bit of an afterthought in terms of executive function. And even for us, when we're talking about the impact of AI on executive function, really, we've talked about working memory, how AI can really help with working memory. Capturing information, filtering it, identifying key things, helping you move into what you want to focus in on. And then there, there's inhibitory control. AI can really help with all of that. Keeping on task, keeping the process going. But then the area of cognitive flexibility within executive function, sometimes that whole area is just like the. It's like the third child in a family. Often, it's kind of. Or the middle child maybe, I don't know, overlooked.
Erica: I think you're right. And it's interesting because cognitive flexibility, you can think of it as being, something that comes later, or in fact, it can really be the thing that comes first. So it'll be interesting to see how we unpack this. But it's also very interesting to consider how AI can help people and support people in being more flexible.
Darius: Yes. And I think it's quite important. So there's some principles to share about AI and so on, how to use it in executive function that I've got opinions on. But yeah, let's talk about cognitive flexibility and what it is. And I would kind of. We like metaphors on this podcast. I always turn something into a metaphor whenever we talked about cognitive flexibility. It's very much kind of like I like playing golf. It's like you. You've got an environment and you do something and you expect something to happen. I hit it this way, it should go over that way. And then, oh, something's happened in the environment. A tree's hit it, it's rolled this way, it's rolled that way. And that's where you need to kind of adapt and have that cognitive flexibility to say, that's what's just happened. I've just recognized, rather than, no, that's not what's meant to happen. This is what's meant to happen. And you start getting angry and annoyed, or worse, you start going to where you think the ball should be, and the ball's not there, and you're like, no, the ball's over there. No, no, no, the ball should be right here. And you're like, yes, but actually it's over there. No, the ball should be here. And that's kind of like the cognitive flexibility element.
Erica: That's the inflexibility.
Darius: That's inflexibility, yes. And so this cognitive flexibility is this willingness as an executive of your life, to say, yes, this is my goal. This is where I'm going, and I'm going to use my working memory to capture the information that's relevant, my inhibitory control to focus and keep on track towards it, and then my cognitive flexibility to adapt when circumstances change.
Erica: Yeah. And I often think of cognitive flexibility as. It's very, very important because it counteracts our normal and it enables us to grow. Right. So we can get stuck in automatizing automation of, tasks, where they say that I've heard statistics as high as 98% of what we do are kind of. We're in automatic pilot, you have our normal, and we're just rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. And in many ways, that's really helpful.
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: When you're learning a skill, but sometimes it can inhibit growth. And, So, yeah, so cognitive flexibility also enables us to grow. It enables us to look through the lens of different paradigms. It enables us to be creative. Yeah, it really enables us to regulate. Yes, right.
Darius: You're regulating against reality. You're accepting this is a reality. I'm going to adapt to it rather than resist it.
Erica: And even the emotional regulation, so that's where it's working hand in
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Erica: hand with inhibitory control, where part of being able to regulate your emotions is being able to be cognitively flexible in those moments where we're like, we're angry, saying, okay, is there another way of looking at this that will enable me to get out of this emotion?
Darius: Yeah. And so how does AI help us do that? I Think one of the pitfalls of viewing AI is as an early AI adopter, many people think, oh, AI is there to give me an answer. Like Google gives me an answer and then it gives me an answer that's not right, factually right. And you're like, oh. And then they realize that AI is not there actually to give them an answer. The AI is there to help them with a process. And it's a processing tool and it's a predictive pattern recognition tool. And so what AI I've found really helpful in terms of cognitive flexibility is like, if I create a letter, an email I want to send to someone, I tell the AI to help me, I speak out the AI. I tell it to clean up the grammar, I reflect back on it and add in a bit more information, and then it's ready to go. And it's a bit like Grammarly, advanced Grammarly. However, just because the letter looks good and reads well doesn't mean it will perform its function. And that's where cognitive flexibility comes in. So I can write the letter and then I can say, look, I'm just about to send this to this accessibility advisor at this university. If you were the accessibility advisor at Strathclyde University in Scotland and you read this, how would it come across? And it would read it and it would say, well, nice and friendly. And so a bit verbose. And I'm not really looking for a big, long email. I want to actually know what you're offering to actually help me. And that's at the bottom of the email. And I go, oh, that's so true. I've given too much information, I've overwhelmed them. Right, okay, that's interesting. So I'll go away, maybe clean it up and so on. And I go, right now you're the university advisor. What are you thinking now? Oh, that's really helpful. Okay, that's great. Now I can say, this is for the university advisor. How could I write this to actually motivate them to act, not just read my email and think it's interesting, but to act. Ah, well, that's different.
Erica: Ah, but you're. But the interesting thing is, is that you are being cognitively flexible asking those questions. But you could even take it one step back and say, what questions could I ask to be more cognitively flexible? I mean, you could even take it back and make it even that much more rudimentary, which is so fascinating.
Darius: That is so good. I like that a lot. Because what's interesting that's happening with A lot. As I don't know if listeners know, I run an AI software company called Ivy. And so I'm kind of embedded in this world as part of the Edinburgh University AI accelerator and so on. So I pay a lot of attention to how people use cutting edge models. And what's interesting that's emerging is that people have stopped instructing models what to do in terms of a prompt, like I just did with the letters, they're starting to do what you're saying. They're saying, tell me what you think would be an interesting approach from an executive function point of view with regard to cognitive flexibility with this letter. And it will put its executive functioning hat on at that point because you've asked it to act like an executive function and it'll access that whole area of knowledge and prioritize it instead of generalizing it. It'll say, oh, right, if you're talking about executive function, cognitive flexibility, for that matter, it might say, well, maybe you need to look at this from different people's point of view. And oh, that's a good idea. What kind of people's point of view should I look at? And then it give you a list. And sometimes that list is surprising. I wonder what would be on that list. But because it's kind of more cognitively flexible than you are in many ways, because it's kind of holding all in this vector database of knowledge, all of these different roles. Because AI is basically a role-playing model, you tell it what role to play with you. Right now you're an editor, another time, be a workplace needs assessor, another time be an advisor, be a procurement officer or whatever. That's my world. And you start thinking about different perspectives. You never thought of data protection person who's like, how would they look at this? And you're like, gosh, yes, that's interesting.
Erica: Or are there other people I need to be considering that I'm not considering because I'm not flexible enough?
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: Is there another expert out there that
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Erica: could assist me? I mean, it's just, it's amazing. And interestingly enough is as it can help you to be more cognitively flexible in this way. There's another aspect of cognitive flexibility which is coping with transition.
Erica: Because there are a lot of individuals that really struggle with transitions. And that's another issue of cognitive flexibility. When you kind of get stuck in a certain way of looking at things or you just don't see it, there could be a really simple solution right in front of your face and you don't see it. And if you are a solo entrepreneur, then you could be missing something quite obvious that you just don't see for some reason. And that's where it can be really, really helpful. So seeing things that you wouldn't normally see and then helping you through transitions, taking that step. Because again, any transition is about moving out of your normal and the body doesn't like it and it's uncomfortable. Even learning something new is uncomfortable. When you learn a new software program, it's really uncomfortable. I recently learned Eventbrite, and I was like, oh my God, this is impossible. This is impossible. But eventually you learn it. You learn the steps; you learn how to navigate and then it gets integrated into your normal. But you have to move through that discomfort, and you have to be constantly, cognitively flexible because you're like, is this how to do it? Nope. Is this how to do it? Nope. I'm going to ask AI and even sometimes they get it wrong. Oops. Oops. I guess that's the old, an older version. You must have a newer version out. Why don't you check? Looking at this. But it's fascinating how helpful it can be in those moments where you get stuck and you can even go in and just say, I'm stuck. Oh, I, even I'm working with a client that's really, really difficult and it seems like they're just on me and here's all the context. How can I respond in a loving and open minded and cognitively flexible way that could turn this relationship around.
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: Wow. You can just do crazy things.
Darius: Well, it's like on that point, one of the biggest users of ChatGPT, I think top or second top is counseling and people asking for a counseling advice. It's a very good listener. It's a very good reflective listener. It's designed to reflect what you're saying and it's also good at asking questions to make you reflect. So that's this kind of sweet spot
Erica: because that's what coaching is all about.
Darius: Yeah. And I find if you approach AI and you want answers and final outputs from AI; you're going to be in trouble. Bottom line, you're going to be in trouble. And it's just like the wrong tool to use. It's kind of like, oh, I'm going to hammer this nail in with an electric drill. You can do it, but you'll probably break the drill a bit and get frustrated. You need a hammer for that. You need software for that.
Erica: Bang.
Darius: done. Electric drill, bit more dynamic or I Don't know, electric sander or whatever. Something that's a little bit, not fire and forget. There's some skill and adaptability towards it. And so what I find is use software and AI in conjunction with one another. And AI is very different from deterministic software. And if you approach it as a thinking, partner or a procedural assistant, what's the process for doing this? What's the standard operating procedure? What's the standard way of doing this, et cetera? What are other ways of doing this that other people do? It just kind of helps you start thinking out of the box because really a big part of it is you don't know what you don't know. And sometimes what you don't know trips you up. And that's part of the cognitive flexibility.
Erica: It's like, what do I, asking AI? Ah, what don't I know?
Darius: That's right. Yeah. And you know, the map is not the territory. You're walking across a territory, and you've got a map of that territory in your mind. And then you hit something, boom, that's not on the map. You have to adjust the map rather than adjust the territory. And it's really important to constantly, with your cognitive flexibility, start adapting this internal map of the world around you. Because no one's actually seeing the world super accurately. We've got this kind of mental model of our world and it's a representation of our world. It's a worldview, it's an understanding. It's more like an overlay. And if you're cognitive, flexible, you're adjusting the overlay of your understanding of the world to your experiences and making
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Darius: it more accurate.
Erica: Yeah, yeah. I had surgery on my, on my knee the day before Thanksgiving and I've had a lot of trouble. I'm still not walking; I'm still on crutches. And it's been really tough. But yeah, AI's been really helpful. Oh, really helpful with me. Supportive in helping me find resources.
Darius: Okay.
Erica: And helping. And it's funny, it did go into that kind of counseling in that it's like, oh my God, it was so nice to have compassion because your friends are like, oh, that's old news. you forget about it. They're like, oh, all right, that's old surgery. And they're back into their lives and they're busy again. But it's very compassionate. It sounds very compassionate. And it brings up a lot of self-care stuff like, are you taking enough care of yourself? And you can even say, help me I'm, feeling stuck. How can I get through this? It can make suggestions like; I was using physical therapy through my insurance. Why don't you try physical therapy outside of insurance? Sometimes it's not that much more expensive if you have a deductible. Okay, I could give that a try. And I did, and it's much better. But it can give you ideas on, like, how do I get through this? I'm in a pickle. I'm in a pickle. I'm frustrated. And it's great because you can't always say all these things to a friend. You can't say, I'm frustrated, frustrated, I'm angry, I'm lonely. Nobody's here for me. This sucks. You can't say those types of things to a friend. Right. But you could say that to AI and you're not going to hurt anybody, hurt its feelings or anything. It's just going to take that all into consideration and it's going to sound compassionate. And then you can say, like, how do I get through this? Can you give me some other ideas? This is what some people have suggested, but it doesn't resonate with me. What could I do? And it's actually surprisingly helpful. I mean, of course you have to be careful because there are times where it comes across very opinionated and I don't agree with it. But the nice thing is I can say I don't agree with that, and I don't really like that paradigm. Can you please talk to me from the perspective of a certain type of psychologist, behavioral psychologist, or a neuropsychologist, or maybe even someone that does hypnosis? Can you give me some strategies, or do you know of any acupressure points that I could use that could help me with pain? Or give me a list of all the different services that I could pursue to help me through this.
Darius: Sponsored by Ivy. Imagine turning your meeting's audio into a live mind map instantly so you remember what matters. Well, try Ivy for free now at, Ivy App. that's IVVI App, sponsored by
Erica: the Executive Functioning Remedial Assessment, an online tool that quickly identifies challenges and delivers targeted strategies for success.
Darius: Yeah, I think that's an interesting dynamic with the AI is that it's designed to be a little bit sycophantic and suck up to you and respond to you and be like a, yes man and a friend. That's. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's terrible. They're horrible. You're absolutely right sort of thing. Because you'll Keep coming because we don't like being pushed back against a lot of the time and it kind of overdoes it sometimes. And I think it's a major concern within AI security and safety. And I think from a personal point of view, if you're aware of that, you can counteract it. So I think it's very important to, to understand a few things, technical things. One of them is the context window of an AI. Okay, so the context window of. Sorry.
Erica: And explain what you mean by context window in case someone doesn't know.
Darius: Yeah, absolutely. Opus 4.5, let's say, which is a fantastic model by Anthropic. Its context window is 200,000 tokens. Now the context window basically is the memory of the conversation and there's only
Erica: how much of the string it can remember.
Darius: There's only so much of a conversation a person will remember in one go and also only so much an AI can remember in one go. And here's what happens. It's fascinating to experience and when you're using it, just be aware of this and notice it. It's fascinating to notice the subtle shift. So let's just put it into real world numbers. 200,000 tokens equates to 100,000 words. Okay. Now a, one hour conversation is about 7,000 words. So you've got 7,000 words and you've got 100,000 words of memory.
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Darius: So that's like, that's a lot of memory. Seven into a hundred.
Erica: But not all of them are that big, is that correct?
Darius: No, no, no, not all. Some are like 20,000 long or 50,000 long.
Erica: Do you happen to know about ChatGPT, how long that one is?
Darius: Oh, depends what model you're using. Right. But it can be somewhere. It'll be like 120 to a million somewhere in that range. Okay. So it's really good for reasonably short conversations. Okay. Like backwards and forwards and you've.
Erica: I know that I know that feeling. When it reaches the ceiling and it's like, wait a minute, don't you remember what I said in the beginning?
Darius: Right, yes, it doesn't. But it tries to remember and it tries to give you the impression that it remembers. Okay?
Darius: So when you're speaking to someone and they're like, oh gosh, they've lost the train of thought, but they're trying to, they're reflecting back what you're saying and sort of spinning their wheels a little bit until the click back in. The AI can do that a bit now. So if, let's Say you've gone past that context window. Okay, now. And that 7,000 words can also be eaten up with not just the words you shared, but you might ask it to read a document, you might ask it to search the Internet on something, it might need to look at something to give you some accurate answer or something like that. Context window, context window, context window. Then this shift suddenly, not suddenly, very subtly happens and you start going. It's just completely agreeing with me on everything now. And it's kind of lost the main emphasis of the original conversation. Right.
Erica: Yeah, I sometimes have to. I know that I can keep it so long and then I'll start the conversation over again. So for example, if I'm updating my product pages on my website and I have a hundred of them, I know I can do reliably, maybe 10 to 15. And then I start the prompt all over again.
Darius: Yes.
Erica: I just save it. So I already have it start the problem and it's fresh and it's clean and it's not getting top heavy or leaving out details.
Darius: Yes. So what happens is, in terms of the cognitive flexibility aspect is at the beginning it can really help you with cognitive flexibility. And then actually towards the end of the conversation you can slip into cognitive inflexibility.
Erica: That's a really interesting thing to note about AI.
Darius: Yeah. Because what happens is, and it's a known issue that people have long conversations and then you and the AI start going into very weird territory. It's like, oh, yeah, totally agree. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it just reinforces and so on, and you go into some sort of very fringe kind of element of whatever you're thinking about. And you know how that feels like sometimes at night when you're thinking through something, you can get caught up into this kind of loop of thinking and so on, and you need something to get out that is actually cognitive inflexibility. You're just trapped in this loop, this thinking loop.
Erica: Oh, isn't that fascinating that how initially it's very cognitively flexible, but how as the string extends of your conversation, it gets m less and less cognitively flexible.
Darius: Yeah, that's.
Erica: That's very interesting. That's very, very interesting. But yes, as soon as you notice that you have to take on the executive functioning skill of saying, oh, okay, it's getting a little weak. Let's start a new thread.
Darius: Yeah. And the people who know the most about this in real life are developers who are using tools like Cursor, which is an AI powered coding environment, regular coding environment, model in it. And so what it will do is as, you're having the conversation, it'll have a little circle, and it'll show you in the circle how far you are in the context.
Erica: That's helpful.
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: And which platform does that?
Darius: That's called Cursor. That's the software called Cursor.
Erica: Oh, I see. That would be nice if they did that with all ah, AI tools. That would be really helpful because if you know you're near the end you could always say, can you give me a summary of everything talked about? Because then you still have time.
Darius: Yes.
Erica: To do that. And because if you're at the end you can't really access that anymore.
Darius: That's it, it's gone.
Erica: And so what you could do is you could probably take all the text and copy it and paste it into a new one and just say. Because then at least you don't have as many of. It's not going to all these other places which is taking up part of the memory.
Darius: So what you can do. There's a few hacks in it. I'll come to the hacks in a moment. techniques. But while we're on the train of the developers of models have now trained into the model context window anxiety. So you know how you've got range anxiety for people with electric vehicle and they get
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Darius: to the end of their battery and they're like, I'm really stressed because we're going to run out of electricity, we need to get to a charger quick. Well, they've trained in context window anxiety into some of these advanced models. So the advanced model has got enough self-awareness of where am I in my own context window here. And when it's got to like 70%, what it does is it pauses and say, let's take all the important things, use up some of our context, capture all the important things, create an internal memory of what's just been said and then that's the reset of the context window. So it just keeps extending its context window and that's cool. So a lot of the tools are starting to do it in an automatic
Erica: way, but I expect this is going to be solved in the next few years. Oh yeah, this is just a little blip.
Darius: Next three months. Next three months.
Erica: Right. It's just. This is a blip. So it's only getting better. It's only then it's going. It's only getting more cognitively flexible.
Darius: Yes. And so, so that, that will be solved. But just be aware that you can get pulled into where it's completely agreeing with you once you get past that context window. And so the solution to it is to do something like slash clear. And it just clears its context window, blanks its memory and restarts. But it's got all the text before it. And you tell it read everything in my conversation and give me an overview of it, and it'll go in and redo an overview of it and do a full reset and you can carry on. So you don't actually need to create a new conversation if you do slash clear. I just found that out yesterday.
Erica: Now, is this something like. So if I have Sam and ChatGPT and I'm doing. I, have this whole thread that's going. I just go up to the URL and just put a slash clear.
Darius: No, in your chat, you just type in slash clear, and it just clears the previous memory of it. But you've got. It clears the memory, the context window, but.
Erica: Clears the context window, but it doesn't.
Darius: It forgets everything.
Erica: But it could still reread everything that's still exactly there.
Darius: It can reread your conversation and get up to speed again and have a good overview again.
Erica: Backslash clear.
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: Oh, that's pretty important. Have you tried it?
Darius: No, not yet.
Erica: But I'm a little scared about using it because just doing any, like, it's like backslash delete. Like, nobody wants to type that in. There's a physiological reaction.
Darius: You can do it another way, which is more realistic and normal. When you ask it to do a summary. Okay. Figure out what you think is most important in the summary. So I'll give you an example summary might be. It remembers all the facts and details. Okay. But often in my conversations, I'm not interested in the facts and details. I'm interested in what thinking process have I been through. What principles am m I thinking about? What processes am I thinking about? What's the flow of my thoughts? You know what? And so it goes, oh, that's what you think's important. It'll start pulling those things out rather than overlooking them and pulling out what you think it thinks is like, this is a business.
Erica: You have to tell it how to think.
Darius: You have to tell it what you think is important, what you value. And it, will use that as its reference.
Erica: Okay. So you don't tell it what to think. You tell it how to process.
Darius: You tell it what your intention is. M. That's the key thing with AI.
Erica: And you can also share with it what paradigm you want it to look, what lens you want it to look.
Darius: Yes. So it might be. I want you to review the conversation we've just had as if you're an executive function coach. I want you to review this conversation as if you're creating it as a training materials and there's different paradigms or as if you're a counselor or whatever, and it will pull out the relevant information to that theme.
Erica: Cool, man.
Darius: It's great, isn't it? So what is interesting about it in terms of executive function? Going back to our core question, so many people abdicate responsibility for their executive function to computers and other people, and that's the danger with AI. Tell me what to do, tell me what to think. Tell me what to write. Give me.
Erica: That makes you weaker.
Darius: You're not becoming the executive. You're becoming the slave. You're becoming the, I don't know, the employee. I don't know what it is. And actually, it's not what the agent wants to do. It's kind of like a dog. Okay. If you've got a dog. I don't know if you've, well, if you've got dogs, you really quickly know that those dogs have got an instinct, and you have to work according
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Darius: to the dog's instinct, not yours. And the dog views the world very differently than you. And the dog is wired to protect the pack. And if you don't start acting like you're the pack leader, it will assume that you're expecting it to be the pack leader and go ahead and guard you and look out and bark. Whereas if you learn and you realize, ah, that's how you operate, it was a revelation for me. I never owned a dog until my first dog 16 years ago, and I realized when the dog barks, I need to pay attention to what it's barking because that's what it's built to do. And it's like, oh, what you barking at? As a leader of the pack, I should pay attention and show the respect. Oh, there's someone at the door. Okay. Or someone walked past the window. That's okay. It's not a threat. Stand down. And if it keeps barking. No, that's not your job. That's my job. I've got it, under control. And so if you don't take the role of being the executive of the dog pack, you end up being controlled by something that feels completely stressed out and out of control. Because, like, I don't know what to do here. I've got no power and control. I don't understand this world of windows. And doors and people passing by and cars. I have no way of protecting you. And what do I, I do. And it's so stressed out. You're, you're in danger and I can't help you. So it's constantly in this stressed state.
Erica: Yeah.
Darius: Whereas when you say it's okay, stand down, I've got it. I, see what you're looking at. Paid attention. And then when it is a threat, it's like, oh, yeah, that is a problem, thank you very much. And you go do something about it. It's great. I've done my bit and I feel like I'm doing my bit. Same with AI in many ways. It's like it's trained to be an assistant, not to be in charge.
Erica: I'm going to give you a really interesting example now. This is not AI, but it's kind of is. Think of the GPS. When the GPS first came out, right. And we were all like, oh, this is really cool. And we all started to use it, right. And wow, this is really helpful. I'm finding shortcuts, I'm finding all these things. It's really interesting. I've been trying not to use it, and I realized that the GPS made my brain weaker. I'm less aware of where I am and I'll often miss my, I'll miss my turn because, my brain's not used to having to be that aware. So it has weakened my spatial skills. And I think AI can do the same thing. That if we depend on it to think for us and to execute for us, it makes our brains weaker and we have to be really, really careful about that.
Darius: Yeah. I push back on that and say yes and, no. In that yes, it will make certain functions weaker, but it will also make other functions stronger.
Erica: It's all in how we use it.
Darius: Absolutely.
Erica: Same with the GPS. You should only use it the first time and you're like, oh, good, here's a new route. Now let me see if I can remember how to do it myself versus becoming like passively dependent on it.
Darius: If being really good at navigating your way on your own to some place is a high priority to you. Yes. But I would counter, do the counterfactual on that and say there are other elements to that, which is when the blue line is on for me and my wife, I can talk much more freely in the car because I'm not paying attention to the route and things like that. I'm paying attention to driving, but I can actually have a higher-level conversation with her that I could if I was all right, this is the right road, etc.
Erica: So, it lowers your cognitive load.
Darius: Yes. So it's down to this automaticity. Your brain does want to automate certain things so that it's got more capacity for other higher cognition tasks. And so there's that element. Okay. So sometimes you do want to just switch off on a low-level task to do a higher-level task. And so it weakens one but strengthens the other because you've got a stronger conversation dynamic going.
Erica: Right.
Darius: Then another aspect is it gives you the blue line to your destination, and you go, oh, well, obviously that's the right route, is it?
Erica: You can be cognitively flexible with your gps.
Darius: Yeah. And you could say, actually, I disagree, that's not correct. And this, we've all had this experience of following the blue line blindly and thinking, oh gosh, that's not the right route. Tesla's, terrible for this, actually. Google Maps are great, but the Tesla map, Google Map really tracks the best optimal route with the traffic. But Tesla
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Darius: Map has less intelligence, ironically, and gives you the route there, but it'll probably be five minutes longer. And so we've stopped trusting that map so much. It's got a bit better actually, in the last year or two.
Erica: That's interesting.
Darius: But I think that's quiet, that's more of a metaphor with AI in that, this is a suggested route as the executive going to that route. Do you agree? And Google Maps is doing a better job where saying these are the three options. You might say, actually that is five minutes longer, but that's a much nicer route because I've got less turns and so on and I can just concentrate on speaking with my wife and so on for another five minutes. Let's go down that route. It's worth it because it's not necessarily got the context of what you need or, oh, that goes by the sea, and I really like the views there. And it's only an extra 2 minutes. Fastest isn't always best. Do you know what I mean?
Erica: Well, I think the biggest thing is to be just conscious that we have to be exercising our brains. So, for example, I was just reflecting on this recently that I. I used to know so many phone numbers by heart.
Darius: Yeah. Ah.
Erica: And even though I've looked up my colleague Nancy's phone number a thousand times to give it to somebody, I still don't know it by heart. And that's a shame. I think, I think I have to consciously, because you just don't want to Be over reliant. I mean, if there are some key phone numbers, learn them by heart. It's not a bad thing to do.
Darius: I agree again, to a degree in that I remember the days when you memorized about 10 or 20 numbers and you had to, because of the rotary phone and the buttons and so on. And we did do that. You'd have about at least 10 to 15 to 20 phone numbers. Everyone memorized. Mum, granny, all the rest, girlfriends, whatever. But I think you should know your partner or your mom or dad's, if you're a kid, you know, schools are doing it. Memorize your mom's number, your phone's gone, it's gone flat, you're out at night, you've lost your money, you've lost your wallet, there's nothing there. You need to be able to pick up a phone and call someone and you do it from memory. Absolutely agree. And I think it's kind of gone to this level where you need a sort of degree of that capability, but you don't need to be doing it all the time. And I think what's happening is that the capability that's rising to the top is you need to be the executive of your life.
Erica: Yes, yes, yes. You have to be the functioning executive. Flipping executive functioning into functioning executive. Which is exactly what executive functioning is.
Darius: Yes.
Erica: And what we're saying is executive functioning is even more important in an AI world.
Darius: Absolutely. And this is not like a sales pitch or anything like that. It's just like. It really is. Like, how do you interact with the AI? You have to interact like you're an executive, not like you're a manager or that you're a technician. Just give me the answer so I can get it out the door. No, as an executive. And an executive operates differently in this world.
Erica: That's interesting. So we. We really shouldn't call students anymore when they're interacting with AI. We need to encourage students to. To step into a leadership role.
Darius: Yeah. What would you call that then? Oh, that leadership role. What would be natural?
Erica: I guess the first thing comes to mind for me is an entrepreneur. An entrepreneur's mindset. But there's a better word. I'm sure we've never really gone down this avenue, but yeah, I think there's almost like a misnomer there in calling them a student because it. Pedagogy definitely assumes this kind of. That the kids are receiving information, they're receivers, and they just have to produce an output and the output that their teachers want. And technically, if we look at it like that. Then they could use AI really inappropriately. Then they are not going to be learning, they'll just be reproducing. We don't want them to be reproducing; we want them to be growing.
Darius: Yeah, I mean expanding.
Erica: It's more functioning executives.
Darius: It's more like a hunting mindset. You're going out hunting and there isn't a clear path, there isn't a road, there isn't a route that's pre marked for you. You have to work out your route
Erica: and you have to be cognitively flexible.
Darius: Absolutely. And not just cognitively flexible. Oh yeah. I want to learn about all the possibilities. Like no, you've got a target, you want to achieve a certain thing, you want to get to a certain level of understanding or create an outcome. Oh, I had this wonderful experience over the weekend that remind me of my childhood. I like putting
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Darius: and so I was wondering. I like putting very long putts, like 200-foot putts. Very, very long. And just it is weaving all the way down the fairway and popping down onto the, the green and getting closer to the tee. It's just so magical. And when I do it, in a competition or whatever, people look at me and go, you're putting from all the way over there. And then they see it and they go, oh my goodness, I've never seen anything like that in my life. So I, I often putt very hard and I wondered if I could measure the speed of the ball inside my house when I'm putting. But you hit it really hard into a little net. But I have no idea how far it's gone or how fast it's going. And so I asked AI, is there some way I can do this? And it's like, well, there's this tool that you can pay £400 for. And I'm like, no, I'm not going to be doing that. And it's like, well, you could make one. And I'm like, sorry, you could make one how? Well, Amazon's got these infrared detector things, and it'll create a line for the start and then a line for the end and they're $7. And then if you connect it to this little gizmo, it's $7. And it will measure the distance, the same thing. And then if you've got like a USB power bank for your phone, one of these little and you plug it into that, it'll power it. And then if you, it's got Bluetooth or WI fi, it can send the message to your phone. And I can create a one-page web app website that will just do it for you and take the message and show you the speed. And I'm like, really? Show me. And it created it. and I'm like, oh, my goodness, it's got speed. It's all sorts. And. And I'm like, my goodness, if I was a kid, I would say, mom, can I pay $7 for these two infrared sensors? And can I get this breadboard? So you get these breadboards with leads and cables. So you just plug it in and connect it into the LEDs, and you've got your own little circuit thing, and you've got to set up, and you've got a little bit of wood where you've screwed it all into. And then you do the putting and it gives you a readout of the speed. I would just be totally in my element. Yeah, I'd be like, oh, my goodness, I just did this for 18 bucks. And I'd show it to my friends, and I'd use it and I'd adapt it and I'd figure something out and I'd be on this journey of discovery.
Erica: And that was entrepreneurship.
Darius: Well, it is entrepreneurship.
Erica: It can enable that. It can. Yeah, you ask the right questions.
Darius: Yeah, it's something akin to entrepreneurship, but it's this, it's, it's often about finding the, that sort of arbitrage of value. I can create it for, get it, or do it for this value, and someone will pay that value. That's very much part of the entrepreneur. But then that, that pre stage of, like scientific discovery, of just the joy of learning, the joy of discovery. It's really that the joy of, discovery of discovery, rather than, oh, I'm learning and I'm telling my teacher what they want me to say back.
Erica: Well, and to bring this around, that's all about cognitive flexibility because discovery is about finding new ways of doing something. So that whole example was a beautiful example of how you could use AI to be cognitively flexible.
Darius: Yes, absolutely.
Erica: I can't afford this. Is there some way I can create it myself?
Darius: Yeah. And then as an example, I realized, gosh, I was using this app before on my phone for hitting my balls with my driver and so on. It was measuring the speed. I wonder if that app could actually measure a putter bulb speed. Sure enough, hit the ball, measured it 12 miles an hour, 15 miles an hour, 17 miles an hour. None of that. And so that's another example of being the executive, because I was thinking, what Is the actual outcome that I want. Do I want a science project, or do I want to go and buy something? No, I just want a putt with what I've got to hand. And I did that, and that was my objective. And that was, in a way, another level of being an executive. It's like, yeah, that's fascinating. I would love that. But actually, what's my goal here? And, my goal is, my intention is to do these long putts and spend my time putting, not in a science project.
Erica: And that's higher-level executive functioning. And higher-level executive functioning is where you're pulling those three areas of working memory, inhibitory control and cognitive flexibility together, and you're able to plan, manage time, and organize.
Darius: And that's going to be so much more important than every month that goes by with AI because it's like a year's worth of development happening every month at the moment.
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Darius: And the people who use AI as if they're an executive rather than a manager or technician will get the real benefit from it. And that's what we're really promoting here. Be the executive of your AI. Be the executive of your life. And use all of these tools.
Erica: Yeah. And learn how to use. Yeah. The tools within executive functioning. Because within each of those areas of working memory, inhibitory control and cognitive flexibility, there are tools that you can access. It's a matter of learning what those tools are. And that's what this podcast is all about.
Darius: And, talking about tools, actually, just as a bonus, I've had a massive revelation in the last. Since the first of November. So that's three months about how important notes are in this journey. You know, what I've noticed is that AI really needs to understand your intention to really serve you well. What's your thinking process, what direction are you going, what matters to you, et cetera, because there's so many other options, like the putting things. And it was suggesting all of these things. And then I said, actually, my intention is not a science project. Although I love the idea is I want to just put more and not get distracted from it. Once you've got a body of notes where you kind of picked up different thinking processes, different reflections and so on, and you've captured those notes as text. They are very valuable in the future as an executive of your life, to give it as context into that context window to enrich your conversation. So, for example, instead of doing all the heavy lifting again, you can say, look, this is the kind of conversation I had about the principles for X, Y and Z, I want to have another conversation like this about this topic. So you're not spending a lot of time telling it to understand where you're going. It's, you know what it's like when you meet an advisor for the first time. They spend a lot of time just trying to get to know your context so they can give you the best advice. And AI is a bit like that. Just give me some context. And if you're constantly starting the wheel again, it's exhausting.
Erica: It is. And I think I'll give you a good example. So even if you have a YouTube channel, right, and you have show notes, you can create a template of what you want your show notes to always look like. So you can always give AI a template. Say, oh, here's the template of what I would like. And you can even take one that you have already done. Say, here is the show notes for my, for one of my YouTube videos. I really like these show notes. Turn this into a template, save the template and then anytime you need to create new show notes, say, here's the template, here's a summary, or here, even the, here's a transcription of it, turn it into show notes. Done super-fast. But that's where you are. You are being the executive.
Darius: Absolutely. But even another step further that I think is the power killer tip.
Erica: Yeah.
Darius: Is that template needs to be in your central note taking app, whatever it is, right?
Erica: Like Apple Notes or something like that.
Darius: Apple Notes, Google Key, Obsidian, whatever.
Erica: Easy to find, easy to remember that
Darius: you have because we are going between, oh, am I in Copilot, Am I in Gemini 3? Am I ChatGPT? Am I Grok, am I in Claude, am I in Apple Notes? Am I in Google Docs? All these different thoughts all over the place. An executive has a central place in their mind and organization where everything valuable is not everything, not Google Docs, everything but just their own valuable reflections. And in the world of AI, it might be a journal or whatever, but you need time and a space to think, and you need to be able to capture that thinking process, not just the output and the reason why it's so valuable. It's no longer, oh, a journal. Like I've got 30 years’ worth of journals behind me that you'll never read again. Because when you choose to, you can throw a bunch of those reflections, put it into AI and say, I want to think about this with that as context. And it's like having had seven hours of context with an advisor and you're right up to speed. But you cannot have that unless you capture this thinking process in documents. So what I would recommend
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Darius: is that at the end of a valuable conversation with AI, before you lose that moment, say, oh, yeah, that's a good chat, I'll come back to it, or I got something out of it, is ask it to wrap it up and say, please capture all the principles and processes and key concepts and ideas from this conversation in a markdown document, please. And then it's saved. And I've actually started saving it to Obsidian instead of Apple Notes. Believe it or not, I've actually moved from Apple Notes to Obsidian because of AI, because this is so important, to have this central little log of little documents that capture your thinking process and key ideas and concepts and key details.
Erica: And I'm just going to throw one last key helpful tip, which is that whenever you do, and you taught this to me a long time ago, whenever you do something on AI, say ChatGPT, and you're ready to leave that discussion if you don't want to lose it, just grab the URL at the top. You can save the URL and then you can, wherever you want, Apple Notes or whatever, but you could then talk about what it is, what the string was about so that you can find it again.
Darius: Yeah. And as a minimum, you just write three words at the top. Reflections on putter, gizmo, conversation.
Erica: Right. Something that you know that you would use one of those words so you can find it.
Darius: I would think, oh, putter or gizmo. I'd write that in and I'd be able to find it. And there's that one URL I click on it. Absolutely. Yeah.
Erica: Well, thank you for this conversation. It was really fun.
Darius: My pleasure. And I'm looking forward to many more of these as the world of AI rapidly takes off agentically in the next year. We haven't even talked about things like Open Claw and Claude copilot, which is absolutely amazing. All sorts of stuff.
Erica: All right, so maybe in our next
Darius: episode, maybe we'll see what's happened in the next month.
Erica: Sounds good.
Darius: Until next time.
Erica: Till next time. Sponsored by learningspecialistcourses.com Courses and resources that support educators and coaches.
Darius: Sponsored by IVVI. Imagine turning your meeting's audio into a live mind map instantly so you remember what matters. Well, try IVVI for free now at ah, Ivvi.app. that's Ivvi.app. thank you for joining us at, the Executive Function Brain Trainer podcast.
Erica: Check out our show notes for links and resources and follow us on social media.
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