Erica: Welcome to the Executive Function Brain Trainer Podcast. I'm Dr. Erica Warren.

Darius: And I'm M. Darius Namdaran. And we're your hosts.

Erica: Sponsored by the Executive Functioning Coaching Assessment. A quick online assessment that uncovers challenges and develops personalized strategies for success.

Darius: Sponsored by ivvi. Imagine turning your meeting's audio into a live mind map instantly so you remember what matters. Try ivvi for free now at ivvi.app.

Erica: Hey Darius, nice to see you today.

Darius: I see you as well, Erica. What we're going to talk about.

Erica: Let's talk about executive functioning coaching.

Darius: Yeah. Because it's something we've not actually talked about before, is it? All this time we've been talking about executive functioning and kind of alluding to coaching and things like that and we just kind of take it for granted that there is this thing called executive functioning coaching. But for a lot of people it's, they don't know what that is. It's like, what is that? You know, I've heard of life coaching, I've heard of executive management coaching, all sorts of different types of coaching. But executive function coaching, what is that exactly? So where are we going to start? How would you define it?

Erica: I guess I would define it as really teaching people about self-management and it's about teaching them about their brain, about the different parts of the brain, tools within their brain, but largely the frontal area, which has to do with our key areas that we always talk about, which is working memory, inhibitory control, cognitive flexibility, and then how they unite to give us the capacity to manage higher level executive functions, which is planning, time management, organization, reasoning. But to me it's really the foundation of learning and it's really applicable at any time in your life, whether you're a student or later on in life as an adult or even as you're getting older. Because you know, it's funny, it's the last thing to develop and the first thing to go.

Darius: You know, it's interesting, I was speaking, I've got this group that I call called Productive Dreamers and we get together every couple of weeks and do executive function, have discussions about this. We often end up talking about AI. It tends to be related to the coaching that I do one to one and then we all get together as a group and a lot of them were talking about the menopause is a key stage where it really affects executive functions as well. So different, you know, stages in life affect your ability to get things done and direct yourself and focus and get stuff done. I, I think another way of looking at it is achieving your goals or a better way of putting it is getting the important things in your life done. You know, achieving what matters, doing what matters to you.

Erica: Right. And managing a calendar and managing your time and able to achieve what you would truly like to achieve.

Darius: Yeah. Because executive function is basically being the executive of your life. And being the executive of your life involves so many different skills. Understanding the big picture of what's going on in the world round about you, what your long-term goals are, how, this particular thing that you're doing right now fits into that and ties into that. Because if you don't have that, what happens is the rest of the world decides what you're doing for you. And you're not the executive of your life, you're being managed by someone else, you're being managed by social media or marketing or what. If you think about it, in these levels of technician manager, executive function coaching is targeting that executive level of deciding and getting important what matters, doing what matters, achieving what matters, or really.

Erica: Stepping into the role of being the conductor of your own cognitive skills.

Darius: That's right, yeah.

Erica: And understanding the different instruments and being able to really manage, manage your working memory. But even within each of those working memory, inhibitory control and cognitive flexibility, what are the tools that are accessible? What exactly is it? You know, so like I have an executive functioning coaching training course and it's so much about really learning about what

00:05:00

Erica: everything is, what part of the brain it takes place in, what are the ways that we can manage things and making it really palatable and simplifying it. Because it's really not that complex. It feels complex because it's not something we typically talk about. They're just these, there are these things that we don't talk about. We don't talk about social skills, we don't talk about emotional regulation, we don't talk about our inner voice, we don't talk about what we visualize. We kind of keep these things to ourselves and so we haven't really processed it enough to really understand how we can step into that leadership role.

Darius: One of the things that I found doing these podcasts with you, Erica, over there, a few. Has it been two years now or a year and a half? Two years, yeah.

Erica: It's got to be at least two years.

Darius: Now when I've been doing workplace strategy coaching, which is another term for executive functioning coaching. But we in the UK, we, the government pays for workplace strategy coaching for people with DYSLEXIA and adhd. So that's their terminology for it is that there's so many different sort of executive function techniques and tools. And, you know, it's kind of like you go onto YouTube, and it's not called executive functioning techniques, but it's all these hacks of how to be more productive, you know, so you can put it under the productivity umbrella. And one of the things I've noticed is that there's like maybe a hundred different things that could make you a bit more productive. But if you narrowed it down to like 10 particular things that concentrated on your executive functions in particular, rather than just being more productive at different things, then the return on that investment is so much higher because you're actually tapping into those areas of your brain and your mind, like working memory, habit control, cognitive flexibility, like we talked about, go over and over again. You know that often other people who are teaching and training about executive function aren't really alluding to because it's just like, hack, hack, hack. And it's so important. Like, I just, I'm amazed every time, like, client discovers how to take notes in something, like Apple Notes, for example, or OneNote or whatever. But they learn how to take notes really simply and quickly so that they can empty their working memory. They then start getting the massive payoff. Do you know what I mean? So when you tie that hack in with that particular function in your brain, you get huge payoff. And I think that for me is a core part of executive function coaching. And I think it would be really useful for you and me to talk from our experience, you know, because you bridge the gap. So let's talk about that. Our personal experiences of doing it, experiencing it with other people. Because there's the world of executive function coaching for children and teenagers, and then there's the world of executive function for adults. Or you could divide it into four. You know, you've got children, you've got young people in their teens, and then you've got college, and then you've got the workplace. And I suppose from, your perspective, you're going to talk about the older generation as well, aren't you?

Erica: Yeah. Let's talk about the elderly too.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: Because they really need executive functioning support. In fact, I have my own theory, personal theory, that if you are keeping your executive functioning skills strong, you can maintain a younger brain.

Darius: Yes. And, put off things like dementia and things like that by keeping. Is that what you. Because I've heard you say that before.

Erica: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there are Times where you might get something like Lyme disease.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: And. And that can affect. And there are other types of ailments and diseases and pathogens that can affect executive functions.

Darius: Absolutely.

Erica: As well.

Darius: Covid. Covid's affected. We did that podcast on how long Covid was affecting your executive function. That was quite a good year or two ago. There's so many different things that do affect your executive functioning. And why would a person go to an executive function coaching rather than management coaching or mentorship or counseling or life coaching or, you know, how would you answer that, Erica?

Erica: What? I'm going to give you a long answer which will help to organize, I think, the rest of our discussion. Let's talk about it for each stage of life.

Darius: Okay.

Erica: So if we're talking about elementary kids, and I think that doing executive functioning, coaching with elementary kids, and when I think about doing it with elementary kids, it's very different because it's gamified. Yes, completely

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Erica: gamified. And what we want to do is we want to build those core cognitive skills so that they know how to learn. You ask a teacher, what are the things that the kids are struggling with? Oh, they don't know how to pay attention. Oh, they can't. They can't maintain attention. They don't have enough stamina. Oh, they don't know how to listen. They don't have listening skills. Oh, they don't know how to memorize. And the teachers just kind of feel like, I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to do that, because it's not really taught to teachers how to do those skills. And many of the teachers, unfortunately, not all, but many of them don't understand the brain. They don't even necessarily understand what these terms are or what they mean, when, in fact, it's really not that complicated. And once you understand it, then you're not kind of in the back seat. You know, we live in a culture where, you know, if, if you're angry, people don't really know how to move through it. They don't understand the fact that that really, emotion is a chemical in the brain that only lasts 90 seconds. And then if we want to get out of that loop, we just have to distract ourselves for 90 seconds and then we can be more rational, you know, but they don't know a lot of those things. And, and when I teach kids, and even little kids, I've had that conversation with elementary kids, they're really interested in that. And they're like, oh, and they'll come up with strategies. One of my students said, oh, I'll just count to a hundred. Now for an adult that may not work as well because it's so automatic. But for a little kid, for an adult I'll say count backwards from a hundred. For a little kid, counting forwards to a hundred works really well. But, but yeah, when you're working with the littles, it's all about gamifying. So I have a publication that's available on one of my websites, learning specialist courses where I have 29 games and I'm actually going to publish this, I'm going to say it. So I just make it happen.

Darius: Let me just say a little bit about that because you know the thoughtfulness about. You play a game, one of your games and you think oh, that was a nice game. But the way you frame it beforehand, and this is why we're playing this game, so they be aware of why they're playing the game. They play the game and then afterwards you're asking questions. Did you notice this? And what did you think about that? And so on. And this sort of guidance you give to the facilitator or teacher, it's just having been a primary school teacher myself and having done games like that more instinctively and intuitively because teachers have got that intuition and want to kind of do that, but they don't always have that thoughtful, scientific, researched pattern. And also a lesson outline and a well thought through rhythm and well thought through questions. These all take a huge amount of time when you're doing it once and, and then moving on to the next thing and you've done all of that, so it's fantastic. I really hope you do get that book published.

Erica: Yeah, I'm going to try to do it before the end of the year. That's, that's my goal. But yeah, you're right. So it's very, very structured. You know, I let them know how long it takes, what age groups, what core executive functioning skills are exercised. I talk about what are the processing areas that are activated. We talk about objectives, material, setups, instructor directions. I give a script on what to inform the students. I also give direct demonstrations so they know exactly what to say, they have the script in front of them, but also what are strategies the kids can use. So you're getting them to think about learning strategies and then at the end there are debrief and discuss questions so that they learn how to apply these skills to real life.

Darius: I think the key thing is that about executive functions okay, normally you absolutely need executive functions once you become an adult, but that's not the right time to start learning them when you absolutely need them. You need to start developing those executive function skills throughout school, primary school, high school, so that you've got them in college, and you've got them in the workplace. especially if you're neurodiverse or you've got executive functioning difficulties. But it's the case for everyone. But do you know what I've noticed is that you're not required to have executive function skills in primary school and high school in the same kind of way as adulthood. because so much of your life is dictated by other people. Like your schedule is set for you, there's a routine, there's a class schedule, there's so much of your life has been

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Darius: orchestrated and structured by someone above you, like your parent or teacher or something like that that actually we need to create these opportunities where children can exercise their executive functions, reflect on them in safe kind of places like playing games and so forth. Because often their lives, obviously they could still use it in different ways. They're planning a birthday party or going out with friends and dealing with emotional situations in the classroom. These are all executive function scenarios. But often they're not intentionally used as opportunities to exercise that muscle.

Erica: Well, and my argument is that it's vital for education. In fact, I think that it has to do a lot with the problems we're seeing in education.

Darius: Oh yeah.

Erica: So I don't think teachers would have as many behavioral problems in the classroom if they focused more on executive functioning. Kids would be learning more effectively. They wouldn't be just going to rote memorization. They would be learning more effective tools of memorization. They'd be using, they could be using both internal and external strategies to expand their working memory. To expand.

Darius: Give us an example. Just make it really practical. Give us an example of, we've talked about this before, of let's say, how developing executive function techniques and skills in an early stage, like with one of your games, for example, could improve the actual classroom performance. Etc.

Erica: Okay, let's take working memory. So if we teach the students about the tools that they have within their working memory, first of all, what it is that there's a sensory input and then we have to process that information. And we do that on something called the episodic buffer, which is like a stage. And we have to hold and manipulate information by dipping into long term memory. And we have these amazing tools, we have our inner voice, we have our capacity to visualize, we can spatialize. And these are these incredible tools that make our working memory bigger, stronger, make it conscious instead of subconscious, so that when we use our brain and we're encoding information, it's more organized, so that when we need to access it, we can retrieve it more effectively. And I can say the same for inhibitory control.

Darius: Take that scenario. Okay. So, yeah, they've used one of them. Your games to understand their working memory and the spatialization, the visualization. And then what you're saying is they go into a class and the teacher can say, oh, when we played that game, do you remember we visualized this and you've thought about, you can now do this. They can start doing that in the classroom, in class exercises as well. Is it as direct as that, would you say?

Erica: Yeah, it can be. I mean, I wouldn't have a game that was working on spatialization, visualization, and inner voice. I probably just focus on one of those.

Darius: One of them, yeah, of course.

Erica: Yeah. But that's. That's what the debriefing is all about. How can we apply to everyday life? How can you use this in your classes?

Darius: That's right. And then the kid goes, oh, I just use that thing, you know, later on in the week or the year with the teacher.

Erica: Yeah. So, you know, I've got one called Listen, Talk and Dance, and they learn about when it's appropriate to listen, when it's appropriate to talk, and what dancing can do for you, too. But it gamifies it, which makes it fun, I think. So often what happens when kids struggle with executive functioning is they get in trouble when they don't do it. Well.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: And they're kind of shamed into it, and they're kind of shut down to it. Like, if a student is constantly told, you know, you know, sit still, sit still, listen, listen to me, listen. Why can't you follow the directions?

Darius: Yes.

Erica: This is the kind of energy that they're getting.

Darius: Because in adulthood, which is where I'm more connected with this now, is often adults come and often listen to this podcast and start getting coaching. is that they say to themselves, this inner voice, oh, I've got to be more organized. And they're punishing themselves and, oh, you know, they're knocking them. And I'm like, let's ease up on all of that, you know, because there's so much more fun stuff to do here that's higher return than just putting yourself down, that you're not doing enough, etc. So.

Erica: Well, that's the problem. That outer voice from when they were children becomes their inner voice when they're adults.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: And now if we were to change the perspective and say, okay, instead of kids getting in trouble because they don't naturally know how to do this, what if we teach them through games? Then it's going

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Erica: to be fun and they're going to have a completely different association, and it will just completely change their whole experience. And it's going to be a lot more fun to be the executive of your brain and it's going to be a lot more empowering and it's going to be much, much easier to step into. But you know, beyond that, beyond the elementary kids, if you start to get into the middle school, you can continue to play games. I think it's great to play games all the way through. But you can also just get a little bit more concrete with them and teach them more specifics. Like, I don't know how many times I have parents say to me, like, why don't they teach study skills in school? Yes, they don't learn how to necessarily prepare for a test. I mean, maybe a little bit passively, but not actively. And you know, we need to get more of that into the classroom. So then we move a little bit from games into something a little bit more, maybe concrete or even more direct application to that. But if they've already had the games that are associated with this, they're going to be so much more open to it. So study strategies, memory strategies, test taking approaches, all of these things are vital to teach. That's all executive functions, planning, management, organization. Why not, why not just teach those skills?

Darius: Yes. So in this podcast we're covering this theme of coaching. And coaching is quite different from teaching.

Erica: It's a good point.

Darius: So you've been talking a lot about teaching. And in a way, in the younger years, the form of executive function coaching is normally, is, is a bit more like a team coach teaching a group of children how to play this game and coaching them through this process. And then I see in the sort, of teenage years, sometimes it goes into training and coaching and it separates a bit because often there you get executive function coaches for teenagers and they're often as part of SPLD and special education and dyslexia, adhd, et cetera. One of the biggest gains, often parents find is when they find someone coming in as an executive function coach to help all that coordination that is required in high school that just kind of lets you down if you don't Turn up with the books or you don't remember this assignment or you don't remember that promise. What's your take on all of that?

Erica: You know, it's kind of funny. I mean, one of the things that I'm noticing is that people become teachers because they're really good at executive functioning skills most of the time. And I find that a lot of teachers just really struggle with understanding how anybody could have difficulty with executive functioning skills. And it's really hard for them to break it down because to them it's a no brainer. It's obvious. How can you do your assignment and not turn it in? That's, that doesn't make sense to them. But it also means that many times they expect kids to do more than they're capable of doing. They're not developmentally ready. I see that all the time. And although there is a certain structure to schooling, after school is over, the structure's gone. And the kids are expected to do it themselves.

Darius: Yes, all or nothing. It's like super structured at home, at work, at school and then. No, no structure at home. It depends on the home obviously, because I mean, you got some parents who take on that executive function role for their child. It's like, where's your homework? What did the teacher say? And straight out of school they've got that bit of paper before it gets lost or blown in the wind or you know, get wet at the bottom of the bag, et cetera, in their leftover banana peel or whatever, all of that. Unless there's an executive there. So basically there needs to be an executive in charge of everything to get something done.

Erica: Yeah, yeah. And I think things have changed a bit. When you and I were in school, first of all, teachers wrote on a board and ah, while the teacher was writing on the board, we took notes. And then when they were finished writing, we were finished writing and they talked about it. Now teachers throw up a slide and they're talking over the slides, and the kids are supposed to write and listen and consume and many of them can't.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: And the teachers are going too fast. So that's one piece. The other piece I wanted to talk about, let me think about. What was that? Yes, the teachers also used to make us write our assignments down. they would make sure everybody had written their assignments down in a planner, on a piece of paper, whatever. They would make sure everybody turned in their assignments. At the beginning of class there was a lot more structure than there is now.

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Erica: Now because everything is done online. There's a real lack of structure. The kids aren't writing down their assignments, so they don't even know how to do that. I mean, I have so many parents that are like, just use this planner. And the kids are like, I don't know how to do that, or I don't have to. The teacher does it for me.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: So in some ways a teacher's doing too much, and in other ways, they're not teaching enough. Yeah, but there's. But I'm seeing so many kids just not really know what to do. And they really just don't know how to take on those soft skills that we were really taught. We were really taught how to write down all of the things that we needed to do. And that's not happening anymore. And then you go from high school where now you don't even have a planner. It's just all on the website. Although not all the teachers are good about recording the assignment.

Darius: Yes, that's it.

Erica: So some of them are saying, wanting you to write it down, and some of them are wanting you to look on the Internet. And it's just. It's a little bit of a, It's difficult. It's very difficult. They're kind of caught in that transition of moving from paper to online. It's largely all online now. But the biggest thing I'm noticing that in high school, they don't give you a syllabus like they do in college. Like in college, you know, the first day of class, you know. Exactly. They. In the syllabus, you see all of the expectations for the whole semester with all of the dates. Sometimes those change a little bit, but you have the big picture, and you can put that all into a calendar. But for kids in, middle school and high school, they just get the assignments when the teachers choose to give them the assignments. There's nothing really very structured about it. And so it's a little bit more challenging for them to manage their time.

Darius: That's what I was thinking about. Being an executive, you need to choose to become the executive of your life. Okay. Not everyone is actually the executive of.

Erica: Their life, but they don't know how because we're not teaching on that anymore.

Darius: And they don't know how. And we've got to teach our children how to be the executives of their own life.

Erica: Yes.

Darius: And. And one way of becoming the executive of your own life is you take control of your calendar. You're like. Instead of someone saying, oh, it's on my calendar over here, you're like, right. I'm going to copy it. I'm going to have my own calendar, you know?

Erica: Right.

Darius: Like I, I think like children, teenagers need to have their own Google Calendar. If it's on the classroom calendar, fine, you just copy it, Put it onto your Google Calendar. If there's a home assignment, if you're going to go for a field trip, if you've got a geography class at a certain time, if you're going to meet your friends at a certain time, if you're going to go and do some music practice, if you're going to go and do a concert.

Erica: But I've got a big but for you. And this is what I hear from my students. But the teacher changes things, so I have to use their calendar. Now what, what should happen from my point of view is there should be a school calendar with all of that. But you can add your personal stuff into it as well because it's really important that it's all in one place.

Darius: It isn't. It isn't. No. My take on that is you create a Google Calendar. Everyone in the house has their own Google Calendar. Billy, Mary, mom, dad, Granny, whoever. We all have our Google Calendar. We share it with one another, and you can see each other's calendar. If the classroom has its own calendar, we'll be due. That's great. You can view that calendar and see it in there from a teacher or whatever. But the point I'm making is you don't make your executive choices dependent on the other. You take responsibility for it yourself rather than being managed. So there's executive thinking, there's management thinking, there's technician thinking. So the technician looks to the manager to tell them what to do, the manager looks to the executive to tell them what to do. And at this sort of high school stage, they're kind of like, I'm managing my life, but I'm not the executive of my life. The teacher's acting like an executive. But it's at that point you can choose to become the executive of your life and to sort of in parallel execute your life with the teacher or parents. Do you know what I mean? You have your own calendar, irrespective of if anyone else has it. You have your own to do list, you have your own note taking system, you have your own way of working that is independent.

Erica: You know, my feeling is throughout high school they should be paths passing more and more responsibility to the students. And that's what I'm not seeing. I'm seeing this huge difference between high school and college. And I hear teachers saying, we're preparing you for college. And my feeling is then your last two years of high school should be you managing your own calendar.

Darius: Absolutely.

Erica: You know, it's really, really important. They should have a syllabus,

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Erica: they should give a syllabus and then teach them. Yeah, teach them or coach them at that point. Right. Because there's. It's funny teaching, coaching. I really like coaching, and I like coaching with children. It's very different. It's almost like the difference between andragogy and pedagogy. Right. In pedagogy, you're assuming that they're. The students are a blank slate, and you have to give them the content and andragogy, which is adult education. You really facilitating learning. But I, what I'm understanding is that kids really prefer a facilitated learning approach. Much better. And they're going to be more engaged. It actually enhances executive functioning training and executive functioning skills.

Darius: So let's fast forward. Okay, we've talked about children, we talked about teens, and let's just talk about adults and jump over college for a moment as a counterpoint. So someone who's listening to this podcast is maybe saying, what is executive function coaching? Because that's really what we're talking about. What is executive function coaching? Why would you do it? What, what's its difference? What I found is when you sit down and do executive function coaching and I do it, and I think you probably do something similar, is you take a certain principle like working memory. You explain, this is how your working memory is working. It's like filtering information, but it's a small spotlight on a stage. There's only a certain capacity before you push one actor off if you put too many in there. So they've got to go to their relevant places quite quickly so a new act can come in and so on. Otherwise it becomes a huge mess and gets backed up. So how do you do that? You take notes. And the way I do it is with Apple notes, for example. It's ridiculously simple. You know, other people can do a notion or Evernote or whatever, note taking app or in a notebook or whatever it is. But the discipline of just slowing things down and just saying, this is how the app works. This is where that is. This is how to get this smooth. And they're going, I feel so embarrassed. I still don't know this at the age of 35 or 40 or whatever. And often it's because of processing difficulties that are associated with dyslexia or adhd and, mostly with Dyslexia processing. I feel so embarrassed. Or could be down the ADHD route because they've just never had someone slow them down enough to go through this process. But that's so important to just slow down and learn those practical skills that often we go way too high, too quick into management techniques and so on. It's like, actually, let's just get the calendar working, shall we? And the note taking working for starting.

Erica: And it's about building core skills to automaticity.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: It could even be as simple as touch typing.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: You can become a touch typer very quickly. You just have to stop looking at.

Darius: Your fingers and you have to start touching those two little knobbly bits on the F key and the J key with your forefinger.

Erica: F, and J. So yeah, it's building certain core skills to automaticity and also being aware of what are the areas that you're a little weak on that you want to strengthen. So if you say I'm not very good at memory. Oh great. So let's use memory strategies. And that is executive functioning. And that is all to me that fits under working memory because you can use those tools that we discussed, inner voice visualization, spatialization, to expand it. And you can also learn how to use external devices. Now that we have technology, there are lots of technology tools that can hold information for us so that we don't lose it. And that's so much about coaching. So coaching is, to me, it's really about, okay, what is it that's getting in your way?

Darius: I agree. And that, that's so true. It's, it's that detective work, isn't it, to just reflect on. and it's often. So I suppose if you characterized it about things getting in your way. Okay. You could be thinking of counseling as something getting in your way in your past. You know, if, you think about psychological counseling and so on in that therapeutic sense, there's often emotional things that are getting your way in your past. That's getting your way.

Erica: You're right. And times you have to go there. I mean, I'm getting trained right now in internal family systems. I'm using that right now with an 11-year-old.

Darius: Yeah. So the point here is that this principle of things getting in your way. Okay, yeah. applies to other types of coaching and other types of one-to-one interventions.

00:35:00

Darius: Things getting in your way. And what I found about work, executive function coaching is it seems to me there's like, you've got like therapeutics, counseling and then you've Got life coaching, and then you've got executive function coaching. And executive function coaching tends to be a lot more practical about the processes and systems. Life coaching tends to be a lot more around the goal setting and sort of looking into the future. And coaching looks, at things that have counseling, looking at other things that are getting in the way. Each one's looking at things that get in the way of your goals at, a different level and a different. In a different paradigm.

Erica: Right. I think of executive functioning as is really efficiency.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: How can we be as efficient as possible? And I really like your terminology that you've used here before. Making difficult tasks easy.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: You know, how can we do that? What tools can we use? You know, how can we become conscious about the things that are getting in our way? Because if we become conscious about them, we can reframe them and we can come up with new ways of approaching that are going to be uncomfortable initially, but eventually we can build those skills to automaticity.

Darius: What I'm just amazed at, though, is how quick a result you can get with some basic executive function techniques and tools.

Erica: It's just like, oh, it's sometimes just light bulb staggering, isn't it? It is staggering.

Darius: Like, I'm sitting with clients who, like 40 years old and I say to them, look, I'm really sorry, but we're going to do something really, really basic and we're just going to go through how you take a note. Can you show me how you take a note and show me how to take a note? I go, let me just show you this technique and that little technique and that. And I go, oh, all right. Yeah. Have you ever thought of maybe taking a photo instead of writing that down and you can add it straight into your notes rather than your camera roll and it getting lost in your camera roll and you're scrolling through it and add a few keywords so you can search it and find it. And like, gosh, yes, that would be good. And all those, yeah.

Erica: Little tips and tricks and hacks.

Darius: Yes. But the key thing is, it's not like. Because what I find is on YouTube, you can go in and you can find so many hacks that can just increase you just a little bit. And they're a bit seductive. But you don't make them automatic eventually. really a lot of them. But if you can find just those few things that you become automatic at, that make a huge payoff when you consistently do them. It's incredible. And, and, because I've met people who have gone to psychotherapy, who have gone to life coaching, who have gone to all sorts of different kinds of coaching. And then they come and do a few hours of workplace strategy coaching, and they're like, I can't believe how less stressful life is. Now that I've got a place to put all my thoughts. they're no longer my thoughts anymore. You know, it's as simple as that.

Erica: Sometimes it's so interesting because so many people say, all right, I'm interviewing lots of executive functioning coaches. What's your program? And I say, my program is that I have no program. I don't believe in programs. Otherwise, I'm forcing you into my system. You might have a square peg. And if I'm trying to fit you into a round program, then what I'm doing is I'm forcing you to be less of yourself.

Darius: Is that what people do, is they phone you? they ask you what your program is?

Erica: They ask me, what's my program? And I always say, I don't have a program. I create a unique program for each of my students or adults because it's a matter of. It's not about making sure that they fit into what I want to teach them. And that's why coaching is so important. And when I went back and became certified as a coach, it changed my whole approach to teaching and working with all ages. Because you really let them guide you.

Darius: Yes, yes. It's like a, being a detective, isn't it? It's like you're between the two of you, your kind of like, let's find what that thing is that's getting in your way, and let's clear it out the way what I've.

Erica: The term I've used, if I've often called myself one of two things. For the little kids, I say I'm a magician because I'm going to teach them tricks and hacks on how to make learning easier. And for older kids, I often say that I'm a personal trainer for the brain.

Darius: That's why we started this podcast was the personal brain trainer podcast. Yes.

Erica: Right. So both of those are kind of executive functioning, but we're wrapping them in something more appealing for that age group.

Darius: And what do you call it for adult do. Are you doing much adult

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Darius: executive function coaching?

Erica: Yes, and I love it. Yes, exactly.

Darius: Tell me more about what you're doing with adult executive functioning coaching. How. What, what's. What's your process? You know, how does it tend to work?

Erica: I don't have a process. I don't have a program. I create something unique. So it has a lot to do with. First, I assess what are their best ways of processing.

Darius: Okay.

Erica: So I have an assessment that they take. And if I. Once I can see what their best ways of processing are, I accommodate that. So if they're very verbal, ask a lot of questions. If they're very visual, we use a lot of visuals or use visualization or we do drawings. But it's a matter of accommodating their way of processing first. Then it's coming into a session with an open mind and saying, how can I best serve you today? What's, you know, what's getting in your way?

Darius: What do you. One of the questions I ask for is I. I say, what's been the main pain point this week?

Erica: That's a great question.

Darius: Main pain point. And they go, been finding it really hard to take payments, you know, for my business, particular counseling business or particular type of business. And I'm like, okay, that's going to be interesting. Tell me more. And. And what we're looking for is like, how do we turn it from hard to do and flip it to easy to do instantly.

Erica: Yeah.

Darius: By working with the way their brain works.

Erica: Right.

Darius: The way. And I think the key word is the deletion of should, you know?

Erica: Yeah, I was doing this with a client yourself.

Darius: Yeah, Quick shooting yourself. Because the. The client comes in and they say, oh, yeah, yeah. I don't know if you can help me with this, but I've got a real pain point with the. The payment pro, how I take payments and there's lots of admin and I have to follow up and I have to check whether this person's paid it or not. And I'm really terrible at it. And I should have got this sorted out by now, you know, 15 years in the business or whatever, and you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on a minute. Let's just take away the should, shall we? You know, and they're like, what do you mean? And. And I'm like, in all of this, you've just been beating yourself up that you should just be able to do this, and you can't go back and find a way to do it because you're beating yourself up that you should be able to just do it. And who says you should be able to just do it the way you've got it at the moment? Maybe there's a better way. And they're like, do you know what? You know? And it's just stopping and taking away that should identifying what's a pain and just accepting that that's a pain for you. And there might be a better way to do it if you just took time to find out what's getting in the way.

Erica: You know, so funny because when I initially went into this work, it took me a while to really see the value of cognitive flexibility. And now I see that as almost as that little golden nugget within, under the umbrella of executive functions. Because just saying to somebody if they're struggling with something, what if we flip it? It always really sets. They're like, flip it? What do you mean flip it? What? Oh, what if there was another way of looking at this that would give you a way to get through it? Oh, that's really interesting. Right. But cognitive flexibility I find is such a beautiful way to get people out of stuckness. And, and it can be such a fun activity to do with people where. Okay, so what would be your wife's or your husband's perspective on this? Oh, okay. What would be. And you can come up with very creative things. What would be the perspective of your cat? You know, what would be the perspective of a professor? Or you can get very creative with it and just by them just listing off those different perspectives and then when you're done saying oh, which perspective do you think would be most helpful in this moment to help you get through this? And you can even have an omnipresent, you can have really creative. What do you think the couch would say about this? And it's really quite funny, but in the end, they end up generating because you haven't really said anything other than just asked really good questions. I mean I really do find that for the vast majority of people, even children, the answers. It's amazing to me how much kids know that we're not tapping into. And my goodness, when we honor them as intellectual beings that have valuable thoughts and feelings, then learning, they become voracious learners. But when they're made

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Erica: to feel like they don't have anything of value to add to anything, they shut down to learning.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: So coaching and andragogy really to me is not just for adults. It's for, for everybody.

Darius: Yeah. And it follows these principles of asking questions and eliciting different perspectives and responses until you have a 360 and decide what the next best step is.

Erica: And I find that what the most important thing that I can do is step into a place of open heartedness and compassion before each session. So I let go of my own personal agenda and I Just really am fully present with an individual so that we can fully meet their needs. And it has nothing to do with my needs.

Darius: So what I find is that sometimes I come into a session with a client, and I say to them, so have you got something that's burning? What's been happening? You got pain point or something that's been burning? Because often the client's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I started doing this and I started organizing this and sorting this out and this has become more effective, and that's become more effective. I have to say my focus is not on efficiency, it's on, on effectiveness. I, I love the word effective so much more than efficiency.

Erica: Oh, oh, that's really. Well, it's. Both of them are really important.

Darius: Yeah, you weren't used that word efficiency. I suppose I have an allergic reaction to efficiency sometimes.

Erica: What about if it's effective first and then it's efficient?

Darius: Yes, I suppose so. Yes.

Erica: You change the order of it.

Darius: The most efficient thing is the most effective thing. it's like often. So I think sometimes if you focus on efficiency, you normally lose effectiveness. If you focus in on effectiveness, you don't need to think about efficiency because effectiveness is actually the goal. I want to create this effect to the maximum degree possible. That's the goal. But sometimes people think about efficiency as the shortcut towards effectiveness, and that is not true. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

Erica: Well, that's interesting because I, I'm different in that sense that I think it has to do with who you are as a person. I think some people might be more attracted to effective and some might be more attractive to efficient.

Darius: I, suppose so.

Erica: If you have a really difficult time with time management, if time management is your major executive functioning problem, then we want to think of efficient ways so that you can manage your time.

Darius: I could, I could, I could argue it both ways. You know, I could because take for example, so what I've seen whenever, often in the first session with a client, they're got a nervous kind of a nervousness to them. They're like, I think this is going to be a good idea. I'm not sure if this is going to be a good idea. I'm a bit worried and a bit anxious because they've got two things in their mind.

Erica: Yeah.

Darius: Number one, normally they're saying, I need to become more organized, and I need to become more efficient. And then I go to them, and I say, I'm not here to make you more organized and I'm not here to make you more efficient. I'm here to do one thing, to make you more effective, because you have been beating yourself up.

Erica: Yes.

Darius: Your whole life for not being organized and not being efficient. And that's why you're here. And actually, that's the problem. You're not trying to be more organized. You're not trying to be more efficient. You're trying to be more effective. And the moment you start accepting the way your brain is and the way you are, you start being more effective. So you could have a very inefficient calendar. Okay. Of the day. But did you have those two really important meetings in place to meet Erica, to do this with your wife or whatever it is, you know? Yes, I did that. Well, that was effective because they were the two most important things in the day, and nothing compares to that. That's effectiveness. So it's a psychological thing. In many ways.

Erica: It is a psychological thing. And I'm going to. I think I figured it out. I think that I've always been really good at executive functioning. It's never really been a problem for me. So efficiency doesn't trigger me in a negative.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: Now, but for somebody that struggled. If anybody has struggled with executive functioning, then they probably have been labeled at some point to be inefficient.

Darius: Yes. Disorganized.

Erica: Right. Careless is the worst word you can use.

Darius: Let me give you all the words that the clients come in with. Okay. Oh, I'm disorganized. I'm a disappointment. That's

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Darius: a biggie. I'm disappointing myself, letting myself down. I'm not achieving what I'm meant to be doing.

Erica: I wait, I've got three more. Careless, lazy and unmotivated.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: They're used in school so much. And they're so damning. They're so shaming and. Yeah. And now I can see anybody that's gone down that path is going to be triggered by efficient because. Been called inefficient.

Darius: That's right.

Erica: But they've never probably been told that they were ineffective. Maybe, but probably not.

Darius: And often they're very effective people. That's, the interesting thing. You know, they can be really good at their job. Really practically good and so on. But it's all that sort of administrative, procedural, executive function type stuff that lets them down. But actually doing the technical job or whatever is. They're incredible at it. So I think a big part of the executive function coaching is understanding that you're maybe setting yourself up for a fall without realizing it by continuing on. I have to be organized I have to be efficient. I have to be systematized. Because what was it? Someone I say to my clients, as a bit of a joke, most organization systems are designed by organized people, for organized people.

Erica: Right.

Darius: I don't know who said that. But basically my approach is I'm a disorganized person teaching disorganized people how to be effective. And I think part of what I keep saying to people is, look, I'm trying to teach you the minimum you need. Not the maximum you need to get stuff done, but the minimum you need to achieve what matters. Because sometimes people go in and like, oh, I'm going to start learning on notion. I'm going to start doing this, I'm going to start doing that. And they have these grand plans of intensively reorganizing all their folders just the right way. And I'm like, I'm not going to teach you how to organize your folders. And like, but I've got to organize my folders. And I'm like, do you. And they're like, what do you mean? Do you have to organize all your folders to be organized, to be effective? And they're like, of course I do. I'm like, I'm not sure you do. And they're like, hold on a minute. What do you mean? And so it's this flipping arrangement. You know, you need a system, but the system isn't necessarily what you were taught at school or in college. It could be different for your brain.

Erica: That is very important. So, which goes back to my approach of really honoring people's way of processing. That's most important, because what I find is I work with some adults who have been forced into something that doesn't work for them.

Darius: Yes, yes.

Erica: And what I like to call. And this is typically individuals with ADHD that I believe I call them panoramic learners. I think these are people with open apertures and they've been trained to close their aperture so they're not truly themselves and they're not even comfortable in their own skin. So getting them to open back up again, embracing their panoramic self instead of feeling like they have a deficit. Right. But this is who they are, and it's beautiful. It's. Who they are is beautiful. Now that we know who you are, how do we maximize your potential? What are the tools that you need to truly honor who you are and how you like to process things in a way that's going to be effective and efficient for you?

Darius: Yes.

Erica: So it's really interesting, but, yeah, I think it, for me it really comes back to let's figure out who are you, what, what makes your brain tick.

Darius: Yes. Let's take these words effective and efficient. Okay.

Darius: How about this? You're meant to be effective, and your tools are meant to be efficient.

Erica: Yes. Yes. We, we want to provide you tools that make you feel efficient.

Darius: Yes. Because often what happens is I, I see people using tools that are ineffective.

Erica: They're just inefficient.

Darius: They're inefficient tools.

Erica: Yeah, yeah.

Darius: and the problem is with the tool and sometimes it's because the tool is way too complex.

Erica: That's right. That they have to throw out their whole system. And then they get halfway through, and they just lose it. They're like us.

Darius: That's right.

Erica: This is too big. Much. And it's not the way I process.

Darius: That's right. Yes. And so their tools need to fit the shape of their hand, for example, or their body. And I kind of think of it like if you're climbing a mountain. Okay. You need to have the right size of shoes on.

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Erica: Right. They have to be comfortable.

Darius: Yeah. And, and they have to be efficient. The shoes have to be efficient. They have to be shaped to your feet.

Erica: Right. They can't cause you pain.

Darius: That's right. Yes. And a lot of executive function systems are causing people pain.

Erica: Right.

Darius: And you're walking in shoes that are a size too small for yours to think. And then you start talking to yourself and you think, oh, I should be able to climb up this mountain. But for some reason I have to stop every two miles and sit down because my feet are bleeding. There's something wrong with my feet. You're like, I, often, I'm meeting people like this and I'm like, there is nothing wrong with your feet. Your feet are perfect. Your shoes are the wrong size. We need to stop, we need to look at your blisters, deal with some of the blisters. And we need to choose a different size shoe to fit your feet. We'll walk a little bit, we'll stop, we'll check how they're doing, walk a bit more, check. And then the blisters will start going away and you'll start going, gosh, I can walk miles and miles and miles. I can climb this mountain. You're like, that's fantastic. And that's executive function coaching. As far as I'm concerned. It's finding the right tools for that brain. And those three elements of the brain are working memory, inhibitory control, and cognitive flexibility. And if you think about it, maybe your working memory could be your feet. Okay. But you've maybe got a rucksack or a jacket or trousers or a tool belt or something that helps you in that journey. For some reason, I can't cook my food properly. What kind of fire lighting equipment are you using? What kind of frying pan are you using? What kind of. You know. And you're like, oh, my goodness, this one little thing has transformed the way I'm cooking on my campfire all the time.

Erica: Whether it's a tool or a different perspective. Right.

Darius: Or technique. Often, it's a technique. Yeah.

Erica: Tool, technique. Our perspective.

Darius: Perspective, yes. Mindset. Yes.

Erica: Yeah. Because if you feel like you can't, you can't.

Darius: That's right. Yes. What was it in our last episode? I did the four T's. Remember the four T's? What was it? It was. You can switch something instantly over from hard to do too easy to do with a technique. And if a technique can't do it, use a bit of technology. And if a bit of technology can't do it, you look at time. Is there a way you can adjust time? And then you've got together. Can you do it together with someone or delegate it to someone? There's these four Ts of things you can go to see if it can flip it from hard to do over to easy to do. And I think fundamentally, executive function coaching needs to be that. It needs to be someone who comes in and walks alongside you for, a good period of time, I would say. I think you need at least three months. An hour a week for three months. I think 12 weeks is a good enough period of time to get real results that go to some level of automaticity. I think you need to do it every week, so it starts to become part of your daily life. If it becomes, like, monthly, there's not enough momentum. Yeah. And same time every week for, like, 12 weeks with a little bit of, like, whatever life hits you sometimes, you know, but generally speaking, and someone goes with you with that perspective of, I'm here to look at the equipment you're using to be the executive of your life and see if those techniques and tools are really fitting your m. Mind.

Erica: Yeah, yeah. I know you and I have talked about sometime in the near future how we want to offer groups too, because there's something to that togetherness.

Darius: Oh, yeah. That is really good. You're so right. I mean, I think wherever you are in the world, getting someone to be an executive function Coach just for like three months to just sit down, look at your system and I would say it's really important to look at your system of how do I take notes, how do I make maps and how do I set goals, you know, or I think of it as taking notes. Relates to working memory in terms of emptying your working memory and capturing all that information.

Darius: Making maps is about how do I get everything onto one page? And it's not necessarily mind maps. It could be a Miro board, it could be a Canva board, it could be anything. But how do I get everything onto one page so I can see the big picture and get the big picture. And then number three is the setting goals or setting reminders. How do I remind myself of what's important? And that could be on the level of vision. Board reminds you of the big picture of what's important in your life. It could be goals, annual goals, five-year goals, it could be your monthly goals, it could be your

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Darius: daily reminders and calendar and these kind of little reminders.

Erica: You're bringing in some time management into that. You're weaving it in there.

Darius: Yeah. So.

Erica: And you're weaving the organization and time management into it, but you're not calling it that.

Darius: Yes. So it's those areas of take a note, make a map, set a reminder. Those are the three things that keep coming back to me when it comes.

Erica: To executive functions, particularly with an adult population or a workplace population, that those are really vital.

Darius: Yes, yes. So I was going off on one there and I was coming back. So if you find a coach who can help you with those three things, how do I take notes, how do I get the big picture, how do I set reminders and so on in a way that fits my mind? It's so transformative. It really is.

Erica: It is. And if you're not having to take notes, what is it? What is your pain point? What's your specific pain point that we can help you address? Both of us do executive functioning coaching individually, but yeah, in 2025, do you think you're comfortable committing to this, that we're going to start some groups?

Darius: Oh yeah, yeah. I'd love to do it in 25, once Ivy has been launched and is out there and people are using it for taking notes and so on. Oh, I can concentrate.

Erica: So much fun. Yeah. The group coaching is going to be a blast because then we'll really have community and there's something to doing this work in a community, whether we have specific communities, maybe for people that struggle with Attention or others there maybe even some that just have struggle with cognitive flexibility. We might, maybe we'll break them down into key areas. But there's also something interesting about working with people that have different needs under that same umbrella because it really helps you to be more flexible in understanding and being compassionate with other people around you. Because, you know, yeah, we, it's so easy to push what's easy for us onto other people and not understand why it's not easy for them.

Darius: Isn't it interesting? Even between you and me, you're naturally organized and I'm naturally disorganized. I've had to sort of up my game to get some sort of basic level of organization that's only a fraction of what you've got. And you've had to become aware of your competence and become consciously competent at what you're unconsciously competent at in order to show people how you're doing it, you know?

Erica: Well, you know, it's interesting. I just have different executive functioning issues.

Darius: But you've created so many coping strategies over the years, you know, like you've described them. I mean, this isn't just you're automatic at them, but it's not because you're automatically good at it. You've actually come to an automaticity of it over many years of training yourself.

Erica: You know, sometimes you might be living with somebody that has wildly different needs. So I'm just recently faced with this, of living with somebody that's a last-minute person and I'm a first minute person.

Darius: You are, yeah, yeah.

Erica: And that, that's very, very, very, very difficult. It is because you have completely different needs and you go about doing things in completely different ways and it's, it can be super challenging. But by doing this work, you really do develop compassion for people that process differently.

Darius: I think I really love doing the groups and it's interesting listening to the people in the group that have experienced one to one coaching. And then also the group coaching is that they love both because they reinforce one another. So in the group coaching, what often happens is I sometimes worry that I'm saying the same thing over and over again. You know, like I've just taught you this or coached you on this one to one. And they're sitting there going, oh gosh, you know, Darius taught me this one to one. But they're saying they're like, gosh, this is so great because I can just sit back and listen and it's not focused on me and I hear the information in a different way and Ah, just by hearing people's reactions to it teaches me and makes me think, gosh, yes, that's right. When they said such and such, or ask that question or whatever, you just absorb it in a different way.

Erica: You do. You absorb it in a very different way. Very different way, for sure.

Darius: And I think one of the surprising things with executive function, the people who are attracted to executive function coaching are those who obviously don't have naturally good executive functioning skills.

Erica: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Darius: And so they're normally finding automaticity difficult as well, becoming automatic at something

01:05:00

Darius: which has huge advantages, as we said, it keeps you more creative, it keeps you more flexible, cognitive, flexible, et cetera. But you drop some really valuable habits that could serve you well. And so often coming back to a group where you get reminded of something, you'll go, gosh darn it, I really should use AI to proofread that, email or whatever. And it's obvious to them they've done it five or 10 or 20 times already, but they forget, and they go, oh, yeah, I've got to do that for tomorrow. And I'll use that. So they. Sometimes you just need that social reinforcement and inspiration.

Erica: And that's why you and I are so interested in doing a group together.

Darius: Because, yes, we have to do it together.

Erica: We hit things from slightly different angles. And what might. My approach might resonate with one person, your approach might resonate with another, but it's just giving you another menu of options. But it's fun because I love working with you, because we always kind of take each other, we climb off of each other.

Darius: That's right.

Erica: To new heights and new realizations, which is really exciting.

Darius: And that was part of the purpose of this podcast, is that to have an excuse for you and me to share our different perspectives from different sides of the world. You're in America, I'm in Scotland. Different age groups even. At the time, I was working with adults, and you were working more with children. And now we're kind of actually probably going to meet more with the students. College students. That's what I mean. College and university students. That's a whole nother set of executive functions. And it's like I've seen it in my daughters or, my daughter especially. She's like, dad, I've spent, like years now just building up my ability to do stuff in life, you know, make sure life works and so on. And it's so true, especially if you're a bit neurodivergent as well.

Erica: And we're now moving into it we've moved into this technology age, and now we've got AI, and we have to embrace these external tools, tips and tools. And the other thing is so confusing is that there are new tools coming out constantly, old tools that are falling by the wayside. And so we have to be cognitively, flexible enough to be able to say, oh, here's a better tool. Oh, wait. Oh, an even better one. But, you know, the good news about this is when we learn something new, it keeps our brain young. If we're always using the same tool all the time, then we're not growing as much.

Darius: Are you saying to me, Erica, that I've got to get let go of Apple Notes at some point?

Erica: Well, who knows? Who knows?

Darius: I know. Who knows? Who knows? Who knows? Evie might take over Apple Notes for me. I don't think it'll ever happen, but who knows? It might happen. But the thing is, one of the things that I've noticed with this remote working. Okay. Is that remote working affects executive functions in unexpected ways because we don't realize it. But often a lot of our visual cues for what to do next and how to do something and staying organized and staying effective and so on comes from other people. Like, someone stands up in the office and goes and makes lunch, always 15 minutes earlier than you. That's a visual cue. Gosh, I better get up and have lunch. It's been a while, or whatever. Someone goes to a meeting, or they have a conversation and there's a lot more. More serendipity and natural organic interactions and so on. Whereas now being more remote and students as well, you know, like students are meeting in a lecture before the lecture. They're like, have you done that assignment? And so on. And like, oh, no, I haven't done that assignment. Oh, my goodness. And maybe they run quickly to their dorm and pick it up and hand it in or whatever. All of that kind of jazz. Yeah, yeah, all of that's gone. So for so many people, and they have to put in other systems in their place, they're much more intentional. And it's a huge effort to actually replace those social, unconscious, unseen systems with much more intentional ones.

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Erica: Sponsored by learningspecialistscourses.com courses and resources that support educators and coaches.

Darius: Thank you for joining us at, the Executive Function Brain Trainer podcast.

Erica: Check out our show notes for links and resources and follow us on social media.

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