#97: How Good and Bad Procrastination Impact on Executive Functions
Erica: Welcome to the Executive Function Brain trainer podcast. I'm Dr. Erica Warren.
Darius: And I'm Darius Namdaran. And we're your hosts, sponsored by ivvi. Imagine turning your meeting's audio into a live mind map instantly so you remember what matters. Well, try ivvi for free now at ivvi.app. That's ivvi.
Erica: Sponsored by the Executive Functions Coaching and Study Strategies certification course, a comprehensive training for educators, coaches, and parents. Hey, Darius. Great to see you today.
Darius: Hey, Erica.
Erica: So I would really love to talk about procrastination and executive functioning. I have a number of people in my executive functioning coaching course that have been asking for more content with time management. And one of the first things that I'm really diving deep into is procrastination, because I think that those are the hardest individuals to work with. And I would have to say, and I'm honest with clients, when they come to me, when they have students that are deeply into procrastination, I say to them, I have to warn you that these are the hardest kids to work with because it's like an addiction. They are addicted to the adrenaline of the last minute, and they just can't motivate until that panic sets in. And it can be very destructive in a family because the whole household gets into the panic of the last minute. And sometimes not only are the kids up all night, but sometimes the parents are up all night and there's a lot of tears. And it can be very, very difficult to break that addiction. It's a very delicate procedure. And I've put a lot of thought into what's behind it. And I think, you know, you can't treat everybody the same way because I think there are different types of procrastination. And that's what my research has uncovered. I uncovered four different types of procrastination. So I created an assessment. And the purpose of the assessment, the Executive Functioning procrastination profile, it's just a downloadable assessment, is to really to figure out, okay, well, what's behind the procrastination? Because if we can find out what is the cause of the procrastination, then we're most likely to come up with solutions. What are your thoughts on this?
Darius: Well, I come from the business perspective on procrastination more than I do the child perspective of procrastination. So I was really taken by. There's two major books that I have influenced me on. This and this. It's called who Not How. Okay. And that's a book about procrastination. And there's Another book called the Right Brain Time Manager. And there's a type of procrastination which is based on creativity. So there's creative procrastination. There are some people who procrastinate instinctively in business. For example, architects might procrastinate quite a bit, but what they're doing is it's not a negative procrastination, it's a creative procrastination. They're intentionally waiting and they're mulling over something and they don't want to jump the gun too quickly. So in the UK we've got the double diamond design system that is part of a British system of designing by the British Design Council. And it ties in with when we talked about flare and focus thinking. There's flare thinking where you flare out your ideas and then there's focus thinking where you focus those in. And when you're designing something, you flare out ideas and then you have to intentionally focus them in and edit them down to, to a decisive point of what you're going to do with all those ideas. What's your next actionable core design step? And then once you start implementing that, you do another flare and focused sequence. So it becomes like a double diamond. If you imagine a triangle coming out from the left to the right and then it looks like a Golden Gate bridge, as it were, in that sort of shape, it's a double diamond. And in a way, during the sort of flare phase that's like the creative procrastination, I'm just gathering ideas and I'm thinking, whereas often people where they're like, right, we've got to get on and do this, the really action oriented people who are really focused people. And so there's a bit of a tension inside of all of us between this flare mode and focus mode. And our world is really geared towards
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Darius: this focus mode all the time. You know, focus, focus, focus. Get the job done, get the job done. And so this aspect of the right brain time manager is, or left brain, no, right brain is that sometimes time management can be looked at through a creative lens as well as a linear lens, through the flare lens as well as the focus lens. So in terms of procrastination, I've got a love hate relationship with it because I know when it gets in the way and I also know what can come from it. When I say hold back and allow myself to be creative.
Erica: Well, you know, it's so funny because I see the word procrastination as almost as a third-party judgment. It's like not a kind Word. Are you procrastinating?
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: You know, so it's funny when you put creative procrastination in front of it, that it's almost like there's typical and you put atypical and it does the opposite to it. Has that same kind of flavor to it, which is. Which is really interesting because I think procrastination in general, particularly in the United States, is typically seen as a negative trait.
Darius: Oh, yes. Yeah.
Erica: And it's interesting to see what's behind it. But that's very, very interesting. I love the idea of there could be a sense of purposeful procrastination. But, yes, I think it's slightly different. I wouldn't call it procrastination. I agree with the flair. You're purposefully gaining information. You're purposely being cognitively flexible. Right.
Darius: And what happens is some people intuitively do this and are procrastinating. Yes. So they're intuitively doing it. But when someone comes along and says, you're creatively procrastinating right now, they go, oh, great, I've got word for it. And I know when it's good procrastination and I know when it's bad procrastination, because I believe there's both.
Erica: That's. That's very interesting. And I think people could use, say I'm being. I'm creatively procrastinating when they're not, and vice versa, where they were thinking that they're just, oh, I'm such a procrastinator. When in fact it's like, yeah, but you're doing something good. And we are. We're very much in a culture of rush, rush, rush, rush, rush.
Darius: So what the right brain time manager talks about with regard to creative procrastination, he doesn't call it that, but it's the same thing, is that if you are going to intentionally do it, you set a time in your diary when you're going to come back to this. So, for example, if you're going to creatively procrastinate, you might say, I have this task I need to do. Okay. I need to find a solution. And it normally means you've got to solve something, and you don't know the answer. Okay. That's what creative procrastination is normally about. I need to solve a problem, and I don't automatically know the answer. So what you do is you sit down and you spend half an hour thinking through every idea you've possibly got, and you. You map it all out. You brain dump it. Okay?
Erica: Yeah. That's it. It's the mapping. It's the mind mapping. And you are the expert on mind mapping. I mean, that could definitely be a way, a strategy to help people become creative procrastinators. And ultimately, you know what, this is the interesting thing. They're not truly procrastinating. If they are being a creative procrastinator. They're not, they're not procrastinating at all. They're processing.
Darius: And that's often part of the issue behind procrastination is, and I'll go on to another form of that later that businesspeople do, but this one, the phase is this. You mind dump everything, every idea you've got on it. Now, it could be a mind map that you. When I say map, it could be a mind map or it could be diagram it out or just write a list or whatever, just get it all out. So everything on one page. I regard all your ideas on one page as a kind of map. So all your ideas on one page and then you write down when you want your unconscious mind to come back to you with an idea. And so you say, I've got to get this in for next. I've got to get this solved by a week on Tuesday. So it's, let's say it's Monday, okay? I want to return to this on Thursday and have an idea of what I'm going to do. So I've got enough time to execute on it, okay? So I'm going to give myself three days to just mull on it, okay? And then what you do is you set an alarm on your phone in your calendar, and it says, this is when you're going to look at this again. Okay? Ideally,
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Darius: take a photograph of it, put it into your Apple notes, set a reminder so it pops back up so you've got it immediately and you can reflect on it. Then what happens is your brain lets go of it; your conscious mind lets go of it and allows your unconscious mind to take hold of it and start digesting it and processing it. And then ideas start popping up in the shower or whatever. And then.
Erica: Or five o' clock in the morning.
Darius: Yeah, you capture those ideas. Then when it shows up on Thursday, you look at it and you go, oh, I already know what I'm meant to be doing with this now, because you've processed it and then you write that solution down and then you go execute it. If you don't execute it from then on, you have another type of procrastination problem at that point. But that's kind of creative procrastination, and that's how you can intentionally harness it.
Erica: You know, it's interesting. I see it as a solution to procrastination. I see it as a way of being cognitively flexible with procrastination, saying, oh, how can we move through this in a positive way? So if somebody was a master procrastinator, could say, oh, well, since you're good at procrastination, let me introduce you to creative procrastination, which ultimately isn't. Because part of what procrastination is that you are refusing to process it. You're putting it. You're putting it to the side and saying, no, I'd rather do something else.
Darius: It's interesting. What is the technical definition of procrastination?
Erica: I don't know.
Darius: Rather than the emotional one.
Erica: Are you going to look it up for us?
Darius: Yeah, let's go. Let's ask. What's the technical definition of procrastination? Okay, I'll ask. AI What. What the technical. Okay. A voluntary and unnecessary delay of an intended course of action despite expecting that the delay will make things worse. It's voluntary. It's intended. Unnecessary delay. Yeah, yeah.
Erica: Intended delay. But yeah. So it's interesting. I can see the nuance of how that fits into procrastination in a really creative way, you know, but it's fascinating. I really like that whole paradigm that you shared with me. It's fascinating.
Darius: It's interesting. A number of dyslexia associations or the British Dyslexia association has created procrastination as one of the traits of dyslexia. And they put it down and said, people with dyslexia often procrastinate and sometimes it's due to creative procrastination. So actually, I'm not quite sure where it is, to be honest, but I remember when I was being trained by the British Dyslexia association for workplace needs Assessment, this was one of the things they actually brought up, which was really interesting. And that's where I first heard about it in terms of all of this as a phrase, this creative procrastination. So, yeah, associated with dyslexia. But that leads us on. It's interesting. The definition says unnecessary delay of an intended course of action, a voluntary and unnecessary delay. And I think sometimes from the outside it looks like an unnecessary delay, but from the inside, what we're basically saying it is a necessary delay sometimes in order to get the best answer. Especially when it's a creative solution that is required.
Erica: Yes. And I think what we're really getting at is the difference between workplace and education. Because in education, kids aren't internally motivated to do their homework most of the time because unless they're motivated by grades. But it's not like they're getting paid to go to school. Right. So we. So in the workplace there are these external motivations that, that if you get your work done, you get paid, whereas they don't have that in school. And funny, there, there are times where I work with families and I suggest that the kids get paid for doing their work because we live in a capitalistic society. And that's basically what happens later on in life. And if that's motivating to them, it's something worth trying because it will be, it will continue to be that way later on. So it's fascinating. Yeah. So I mean, kids are kind of expected to do a lot of this hoop jumping and do things that they're really not motivated to do. Right.
Darius: Okay, so you've got your list there and I've heard your list already, so I'm looking forward to going through it. You're dealing with the negative procrastination. Let's look at the, the next positive side of the procrastination in terms from a business point of view. Okay. And a workplace. And that's by Dan Sullivan. And Dan Sullivan is a world-famous business coach.
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Darius: And he said there are businesspeople who procrastinate a lot and they really beat themselves up about procrastinating, especially if they're running a business. And he said in his opinion and experience, most procrastination is based on the who, not what dynamic. And let me unpack that. When you're procrastinating, you've got a goal you want to achieve, but you're putting it off. And often you're putting it off because you don't know what to do. Okay. You don't know what to do to achieve that goal. And so unconsciously you just keep putting it off, putting it off, putting it off. And it really frustrates you and everyone else round about you because you set it as a goal. And so he says you need to find a who, not a what. So you find the right person to do the outcome.
Erica: The delegating.
Darius: Yes, who, not what. And so a lot of people get hung up on I have to be able to do everything, I should do everything. And he's like, no, in this situation to who, not what and what. The beauty of it is when you find a who, often they've got something that they need done and you become the who for their thing because it's easy for you to do. Right. And so this who, not what is an. A beautiful dynamic doesn't solve absolutely everything. Sometimes it costs you money because you're delegating, or sometimes it's a negotiation where you just say, well, if you did this for me, I would do that for you. And it becomes a who, not what, and you both achieve very significant outcomes.
Erica: It's a barter.
Darius: It's a kind of barter. And, yeah, there's lots of options with it. And what he's putting in there is that is essentially the foundation of. Of the whole economy. Who, not what.
Erica: That's a lovely. What I'm enjoying about this conversation is that we're really looking at procrastination through many different lenses, which is fascinating. And I think that's why it's such a challenging nut to address, is it's complicated. It's not simple.
Darius: It's only complicated, I think, for younger people at school, because school complicates this a lot. Because school requires you to be good at everything. School requires you to do everything.
Erica: And you can't delegate, can.
Darius: You can't delegate. You cannot delegate. Whereas in the world, you succeed if you delegate and you fail if you don't. You know.
Erica: Right. If you don't have that skill. That's. That is correct.
Darius: Yeah. You don't succeed as much. Our world is designed around teamwork, whereas school is designed around being a solo expert and being good at everything on your own. And is.
Erica: Yeah. And being graded on every aspect.
Darius: Every single aspect. It's ridiculous.
Erica: Yeah, that's right. You have to juggle all the balls.
Darius: Yeah. And you have to be good at everything. And the reality is when I think it's really helpful for people with dyslexia, adhd, people who are neurodiverse, to realize you just need to be good at one thing to be successful. You don't need to be good at everything. Or 50 things or a hundred things are all the things that you need to make life work. You just need to be good at one thing really well, and you can start getting other people to do other things you're not good at.
Erica: That's really lovely. I like that. And I think that's a really fascinating distinction of. Yeah. In school, you're. You have. You have to run the whole band. You're a solo band. Versus. And the sad thing about it is we are not teaching enough of how to delegate. Like, I really struggle with delegation, I'm not really sure how to do it. I'm not good at delegating. And, yeah, it's kind of fascinating to learn about that. And I think there are those of us that need to be taught how to delegate.
Darius: I think it's harder, actually, for people with dyslexia to learn to delegate sometimes, because I've seen it both ways. Like if you're Richard Branson or a Jackie Stewart, he's famous in Scotland, and you're so dyslexic you just simply cannot do it, then you have to delegate. If you're moderately dyslexic like me, I think you maybe what happens is go into overdrive to achieve what everyone else does effortlessly or with low effort. Yeah. And so you can do it, but it takes so much out of you that you become massively
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Darius: inefficient at doing it. And so what happens is.
Erica: Or you can become perfectionistic.
Darius: Yes. And you internalize that. You have to do everything. You have to be good at everything. To succeed. You have to be good at everything. That is what the school is telling me.
Erica: Well, that's what we were kind of taught to do in school.
Darius: Yeah. At school. To succeed, to be a success, you have to be good at everything. It is a lie from the pit of h*** that you have to be good at everything to succeed. It is wrong. It is a way to control you. It is a way where you are being controlled by this false narrative inside your head. I need to be good at everything.
Erica: It's also. It also pulls you away from your gifts.
Darius: Absolutely.
Erica: It pulls you away from your gifts because you can be really gifted at something. I mean, occasionally I'll be working with a student. I'm like, I can't believe how amazingly gifted you are at this. I've never seen anybody do this task.
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: As easily and beautifully as you have done it. And that happened just a couple weeks ago with one of my students. And he was just amazed. He's like, this is so easy. I'm like, yeah, but it's not for everybody. I mean, I'm just amazed at how you just navigate through this with grace. And this is one of your genius qualities. And, yes, so often we're not able to really follow our genius qualities, which is usually our joy. Were forced. I can think of so many college students that I worked with that were forced to take math, and they failed over and over and over again. 1. One just couldn't get his college diploma or his college degree because he couldn't pass Algebra, you know, and just the amount of angst and shame and everything that went into it, which is heartbreaking. Right.
Darius: And it carries over into the rest of your work life because you start internalizing that you need to be good at everything to be a success. And that is not true.
Erica: And you're internalizing the shame of not being good enough, which is heartbreaking. And what it does is it derails you and pulls you away from your passion and your strength. It's fascinating. So I would love to talk to you a little bit about what I came up with for the four types of procrastination. And I think you're right. I think it is primarily for students. Yeah, I think that really defines it quite well. So the first one is overwhelm based procrastination. And those are delays that occur when tasks feel too large, they're too complex, or they're mentally demanding and demanding. Difficult to hold on to all that information at once. And that's one type of procrastination. The second one I look into is perfectionism-based procrastination where delays are driven by fear of mistakes, very high internal standards, or difficulty deciding when work is good enough to submit. I mean, I've got some students where it's great. You know, it's that saying a work of art is never finished, it's merely abandoned. They kind of go by that and sometimes they can make things worse by being too perfectionistic. You know, their first try was the most beautiful and simple and. But they just can't let it go. They can't turn it in. They want to give it one more look, another look, another look, another person's eyes. The third one is emotional avoidance procrastination. It's linked to uncomfortable emotions such as anxiety, boredom, frustration or stress. And then the last one, which I think I've heard you talk a little bit about with the adult population in the workplace, is ambiguity-based procrastination, which are delays caused by unclear instructions, expectations, choices, or uncertainty about what is required or what they're supposed to turn in. I see that a lot, particularly with the dyslexic population, because it's kind of combination of the overwhelm and the ambiguity.
Darius: Yeah, I mean, so what we tend to do with procrastination is we tend to blame ourselves. Fundamentally. We say there's something wrong with us or there's something we don't want to be doing this, you know, when someone's procrastinating and from the outside it can look like, well, it's Just, just write that one page memo or write that answer, you know. But then someone with processing difficulties might not understand the question, for example, your fourth one. So they're confused about how to process it, but they feel a bit guilty because it
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Darius: seems they're being given the impression that this should be a piece of cake, and it doesn't seem like a piece of cake and they're like, well, hold on a minute. But they're not going to say anything because obviously this is really easy and obvious and they're not quite getting it. So they're just going to keep that on the down low and then try and figure it out over time. And then they don't quite figure it out or they forget about it because it doesn't quite make it into their working memory out their working memory into the right place. They don't write it down or whatever. It hasn't connected.
Erica: And then it can trigger the emotional avoidance because you're getting some anxiety about the fact. So yeah, there. But it's nice because when people take the profile, you'll often see that there's one that's the most prominent and there are other ones too that are up there because they do tend to trigger one another. But the nice thing is that if you can evaluate and see what are the key areas that trigger the procrastination, then of course the assessment offers strategies on how to move through that particular type of procrastination. And it's funny, you know, it's interesting, you could actually it's downloadable. At least at this point right now, a downloadable assessment. You could even do it per project because it could change, right?
Darius: Yeah, because that's what I'm wondering. It's like, is procrastination not kind of dependent on other things? Like there are certain practical tasks that I have no problem procrastinating on because I know I can get it done quite simply, straightforwardly. Whereas replying to a difficult email I might procrastinate for weeks on.
Erica: Yeah, well, I think this is a distinction between workplace and academic. This is really most appropriate for academic based. It might apply to some people with workplace. You know, I can think of some people that I know that are super perfectionistic and they would just absolutely fall into that realm.
Darius: Give me an example. So let's say university. That's something I understand a bit more about rather than school, but school and university similar in many ways. You've got an assignment and you've got to write an essay. Yeah, right. You've got to submit an essay. Give me some examples of things people might procrastinate on.
Erica: Well, let's go with the perfectionism one. That's a really interesting one because the person that's a perfectionist has that sense of perfectionism in a way. They're not really procrastinating. They don't procrastinate to get started with it. They procrastinate about turning it in.
Darius: Right? Yes.
Erica: So you could see how the value in assessing is really key because if they've got that perfectionistic, they're probably starting it nice and early versus the overwhelm, they're going to start it much later. And so it really helps to define when you need to address some of those issues. And the perfectionistic individual is going to be doing it all along. They're probably just doing too much, and they just can't let it go. Right.
Darius: So an example would can’t let go writing an essay. Or give me some of the, the things that.
Erica: Yeah, let's say an essay. They write the essay and then they're like, oh, I think I can make this better. And they work on this. Oh, I think I can make it better. No, I'm sure I can make it better. And so they actually don't turn it in on time because they, they wanted to make it even better.
Darius: So then we've got the three other types. We've got the overwhelm, which is more understandable in that it's like it just needs broken down into chunks that feel manageable.
Erica: Right, that's right. That's right. They just, they can't even look at it because it's so much to do that they just can't even get started. And you're right. And really the key to that particular one is breaking things down into manageable chunks, defining it. And by doing that, they're getting started. And once they get started, but it's that micro task and then writing down everything to reduce the mental load, to release the working memory and then using things like the two-minute rule. All right, I'm just going to do it for two minutes.
Darius: Yeah, that's it.
Erica: Because that gets them. Or I could do for two minutes. And I might say maybe you're not even doing the assignment. Maybe you're just organizing your thoughts for two minutes.
Darius: So, so do you use the two-minute rule as at least two minutes or do you make it. Is it just two minutes?
Erica: It's the idea. It's the idea that you're lowering that barrier of entry.
Darius: It's very important for me Actually, that how you define the two-minute rule?
Erica: Well, you know, I was working with a student that really struggles with procrastination. And I said to him, because he was just. His heels were dug in, and I said, but
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Erica: what if we just do it for two minutes? Yeah, that's it. That's all I'm asking for. Just two minutes. And then after the two minutes, let's see how you feel. Can you do it for two minutes? Okay, I'm going to set a timer. I'm going to set a timer.
Darius: Brilliant.
Erica: Just going to do two minutes.
Darius: Well, that makes a big difference because I have this conversation with business professionals. I used to do workplace strategy coaching. I'm too busy now. But one of the conversations I have with them is exactly about this specific task of overwhelm and a two-minute rule. And I say to them, if you say to yourself, I will do this for at least two minutes, and if after two minutes, I don't want to do this anymore, I will stop. And if I do want to keep doing it, I just keep rolling. Okay? I set a timer, two minutes, it goes. I check in with myself. Do I want to stop or not? And what's interesting about this is that there's a part of us that is a bit of a bully for many of us that bullies us in to keep going after two minutes. And they use the two-minute rule to trick us into doing what we want. And so I kind of narrate this as there is like a little me and a big me. Little Darius and big Darius, whenever we're doing this procrastination thing, okay? And it gets into the emotional side and the psychological side because it's not just about practicalities, it's also psychological. And that is little me is like the playful, childlike Darius. And then big me is like the grownup trying to be sensible, forward thinking. And big me comes along and says, Darius, we've got this job to do. We need to sit down and go through this paperwork. And little me goes, oh, God, no, I hate this. This is horrible. And big me goes, no, Darius, you've really got to do this right now. And little me goes, no, no, no, no, no, no. And it's kind of screaming, it's getting distracted. I've got to go and do this. I need to go to the toilet. I need to go. You know, there's all sorts of stuff start coming up and you're not conscious of this, but this is what's happening. Not all the time, but for some people. And so big me introduces this concept of, oh, let's just do it for two minutes. And little me. And this is why I asked. Little me goes, really, two minutes? Do you really mean two minutes? Big me goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll do it for two minutes. Just two minutes. And then you do. Okay, you do it for two minutes. And then big me goes, oh, let's just keep going. And little me goes; you've betrayed my trust. You tricked me. I do not trust you. And so what happens is, the next time big me comes along and says, let's just do it for two minutes, little me goes, I'm not doing it at all. I'm not doing it at all.
Erica: Yeah, that's not good. You have to be very careful.
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: And so what happens is parents often do that.
Darius: Yes. We've internalized what our parents do. And so as adults in the workplace as well, I teach them to say, look, when you break this down into a task, that is a pomodoro task, you can do it in less than 25 minutes. And you know, you can do it in less than 25 minutes. You know, 10 minutes, 5 minutes, less than 25. That's on your list. You can do this. And you say, right, we're going to do this. Is it okay if we give it two minutes? And if we don't want to do it after two minutes, we stop. Little me says, well, what little me will do is we'll test you. Okay. You have to set the timer. And at the end of the timer you go to little me and you go; do you want to keep doing this?
Erica: Yes.
Darius: And little me goes, oh, he asked. He didn't trick me into just running the timeout.
Erica: Right.
Darius: And then little me goes, no, I don't. And big me goes, fine, no problem. Let's move on to the next thing to do. And little me is testing until it. And then it does it two or three times, depending on what you've got inside you. And then after two or three times, little me, you can do the two-minute rule. And little me will quite happily go, actually, this is okay, I can do this. Yeah, let's just, let's keep going. I quite like to finish this off, actually. And you're on the roll. And then the two minute rule works.
Erica: Yeah.
Darius: So it's about building trust with yourself.
Erica: You know, I love what you're talking about. It gets into, you know, I'm an IFS practitioner. I went back and was trained as an IFS coach. And it's all about really Getting to know the different parts. And we do have different parts. You'll hear yourself say, well, a part of me feels this way, and a part of me feels that way. And it's a matter of just honoring your parts and being kind to your parts, because we do have these embedded triggers
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Erica: which have been kind of left like breadcrumbs across our lives. And we have to be kind and compassionate to those parts. And when we are, then we can get through things a lot more.
Darius: Yeah. And in your scenario, little me is the child and big me is the parent. And so the parent, with regard to procrastination, needs to say, right, okay, maybe this is too big a task to do in one go. Should we break it down into a chunk that you can manage? Yes. And. And I see this with adults, okay, because they're mimicking the adult, the parent and child relationship within themselves. So let's say the essay. Okay. They'll say, right. Okay, let's break it down. All right, well, what's the first step? Let's break it down into steps you can manage. Okay, first step, write essay. You know? Well, can you write the essay in less than 25 minutes? No, I can't write the essay in less than 25 minutes. What can you write in less than 25 minutes? First draft. First draft of essay. Write that down. Okay, so if we wrote that down and you went away and you read first draft, could you do that in less than 25 minutes? If I'm honest, I couldn't know. Well, what could you do? And they're like, I don't know. Maybe we write down find question, and they're like, oh, yeah, yeah. Because I don't know where it is. Right. Do you think you could find the essay question in less than 25 minutes? Like, yeah, I could find the essay question less than 25 minutes. Great. Let's put that down. Find essay question. Okay, what do you think the next 25 minutes would be? Well, do the first draft. And could you do the first draft in less than 25 minutes? No, I couldn't. Well, what could you do? And what they're doing in all of this is counteracting this false expectation that they're always putting on themselves that they should be able to do it faster. Right, right.
Erica: Right.
Darius: And the reality is they can't. And it's about being honest with yourself and allowing yourself to be honest with yourself and giving yourself the love, the kindness.
Erica: You're right.
Darius: The patience to say, it's okay.
Erica: Let's go find the question that you didn't get when you were a child, which is why you have that part that isn't cooperating in the first place. They don't feel seen, loved, appreciated, understood.
Darius: That they're going to be incompetent. They're going to be a disappointment again. And so they're protecting themselves from being a disappointment again.
Erica: Yes, yes.
Darius: So what do you do? You then say, well, what can you do once you found the question? They go, well, maybe I'll read the question. And you're like, yeah, maybe we'll spend some time understanding the question. Oh, yeah, yeah, that would be good. Because often I don't understand the question. And I'm like, yeah, I know what it's like with dyslexia. Sometimes the question, you can expand the scope of the question too much. You need to define what the scope is. What do they actually mean? That can take time, can't it? And they're like, oh, yeah. And what's that dealing with your fourth. What is the fourth one? The ambiguity. It's dealing with the ambiguity of the question. They're like, oh, can't. I don't understand what the question is going to be about. It's just overwhelming, and so on. And so what happens is it's this kindness to yourself to slow it down, break it down, and allow yourself to be who you are. Allow yourself to take the time it takes for every single one of those little steps.
Erica: Yeah. You know, it's funny that you say this, because I could think of a part within myself for almost each one of these. There's a part that gets triggered by ambiguity. There's a part that gets triggered by the emotional avoidance, and there is a part that gets triggered by the perfectionism, and there's a part that gets triggered by the overwhelm. Now, some people just are not perfectionistic, and some people are. So, you know, not everybody's going to hit each one of these. But I think it is interesting to think about there are going to be different assignments that hit different things because some assignments are ambiguous and some assignments are not. And then, you know, we now have these wonderful tools like AI that you can just plug the question in and just say, can you make this less ambiguous? But again, you know, sometimes it's not even you. It's the teacher. The teacher's assignment is ambiguous. It's not that you are not able to understand it. So, you know, it's interesting. So sometimes you just have to go back to the teacher and say, look, this feels a little ambiguous. Can you make It a little bit more concrete for me. But yeah, I often do that with my students where we'll put an assignment into AI because, you know, sometimes a teacher
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Erica: will give a paragraph for the assignment, but it has five different expectations in it. And for a lot of individuals with learning difficulties or attentional issues, they might miss one of those. And if you miss, that could be 20 points that you just missed right off the bat because you just didn't read for all the details. And being able to throw that into AI and just saying, can you break this down into a sequence of steps that I need to go through so that I make sure that I hit everything? And let's put little check boxes there. I love going through a paragraph and saying, every time we see a task that you have to do, let's put a checkbox above it. And then, you know, we have to make sure that we go back, and we check off all those boxes before you turn it in. But. And again, by looking at the different what type of procrastination issue a student has, then you have a very specific strategy on how to get them through it. Because if you don't know what's behind the procrastination, you know, if you're just assuming that everybody has overwhelmed based procrastination and you're working with someone that's perfectionistic, you're going to, you're not going to connect. It's not going to work.
Darius: Yeah, there's even more than these four. I mean, some people just don't. Some people just don't care. I don't care. I don't want to do it, you know.
Erica: Oh, that's the emotional avoidance.
Darius: Okay, well, there's some people who are avoiding it not just because of emotions. They just don't care. It's like, I don't want to do it, not because I'm emotionally against it or anything. It's just like, I really do not want to be doing geography. I really do not want to be doing. I don't know my French vocabulary because I really don't care about French vocabulary. And so that is treated as procrastination. I've had students.
Erica: But then, you know, if you go into that, which is what's part of the emotional avoidance. Procrastination. And you talk about. All right, let's talk about that feeling.
Darius: Okay. Yeah. For some people, it's not a feeling.
Erica: You don't think there's a feeling behind that?
Darius: I suppose, yeah. I mean, a lot of people talk.
Erica: About feeling like, I feel. I hate this. That's a feeling.
Darius: Yeah.
Erica: Doing this, I think it's not worth it. It's dumb.
Darius: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Erica: You know what I mean?
Darius: Emotional procrastination. I get where you're coming from. Okay, Fair enough. I interpreted that as I am procrastinating because the emotions it elicits inside of me sometimes, I'm procrastinating because it's just a stupid task. I mean, it's stupid to ask me as a person with dyslexia, to learn French vocabulary. It's just stupid. Stop it. Delete, delete, delete.
Erica: There are. You've got those situations where someone's really gifted in math and the teacher insists that the student has to write out the steps and they won't do it because they know the answer.
Darius: Yeah. And. Okay, like that happens. Yeah, it does. Absolutely. So procrastination, There's a lot to it. There's a lot to. Procrastination.
Erica: There is. And I think that's one of the problems. And I think that's why it's so hard to help individuals, particularly students with procrastination issues, because we're not spending enough time evaluating where that's coming from.
Darius: Yeah. And I think fundamentally, if you're dealing with children who have got executive function difficulties or differences or processing difficulties, a dyslexia as well included dysgraphia dyscalculia. In a way, I think you need to grow up faster than other people because there's an element of you where you need to start having the metacognition, the self-awareness and the self-understanding of how you work. Whereas other people don't need that. They can just go with the flow, and they can just go the way other people are. There's something I've noticed often it forces you to grow up and take responsibility for certain things sooner. And part of that is, and I think as you take responsibility for your own executive function, this big me is the person in charge of the executive function. Big me needs to learn to be kind. Big me needs to learn to understand the contribution that little me brings. Because little me is not just someone that needs bossed around like a little child being told, go do this, go do that, go do this. No, little me has the nature of a child, but little me
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Darius: is also the one who comes up with creative solutions, creative ideas you never thought of, comes up with the playfulness to work through something. Little me brings a lot to the table. And sometimes little me is very inefficient, but often little me is very effective. And there's a big difference between efficient and effective. So big me is often very efficient and little me is often very effective. And you need the right combination of both. And so these two parts of yourself need to work in partnership and respect for each other. So it comes back down to the flair and focus. So little me is very good at the flare, Big me is very good at the focus. And when they say, oh, it's time to flare, little me comes out and starts doing all its new ideas and playfulness and so on and all. And big me has to step back and let it and stop frigging trying to control everything. Just step away. Let little me, little me do its thing. Great. And then little me says, I'm done. And it's kind of like. And big me goes, can I. Can I join in now? And big me comes in and goes, right, well, what if we focus in on this? And what if we focus in. And little me's like, well, I don't know.
Erica: And.
Darius: And big me, we do need to let go of some of these things. And you know, oh, okay, fine. And there's like this trust that gets built up in this creative process, you know? So as you're going through this flare and focus, a trust builds up inside of yourself and also within a team who's doing this. But you've got to start learning to do that inside of yourself.
Erica: Yeah. It's so interesting to hear you talk about this, because this is exactly what ifs is all about, is that you have. They call them exiles. You have these little, little me's that are kind of exiled and they have protectors, and you have to make it past the protectors with kindness and compassion and love before they'll let you even get to the exile. And then you have to release the trauma and then you have them choose a new role. You ask them what they want to do. I've done this with students.
Darius: Yeah, well, I mean, and it's beautiful.
Erica: To see what happens to them.
Darius: I totally get that. The, the problem I have with all of that, it feels a bit too complex for me, and I think might feel too complex for some of the listeners. So in many ways, I think simplifying it down to these two characters within what you're doing is relatable in that there are. Obviously, our psychology is so much more complex than what I'm saying. Obviously. But in order to make it simple enough in that moment of like the two-minute rule or.
Erica: Yeah. In order to address procrastination.
Darius: Yes. Simplifying it down to just Saying we'll let the playful part of you do its thing here. We'll let the organized part start being that it's so helpful to have. For me, especially within a world of complexity. The. The problem is with all of these things is if you make it cognitively complex, often executive function goes out the window because it becomes too cognitively taxing and you're making multiple decisions. But if you simplify, and that's why I'm intentionally simplifying it to little me and big Me, then it becomes. You really get to the heart of.
Erica: Well, and that's what you do in an IFS session. You don't all the parts at once.
Darius: Okay, got you.
Erica: You take it one part at a time.
Darius: Right.
Erica: And sometimes you're working with that part for. Could be one session. It could be 24 sessions.
Darius: Okay. Right.
Erica: You know, but it's all about building trust.
Darius: Yes.
Erica: Trust and love. Which is. It was lovely to hear you say that. You were hitting it from a different angle, and it just shed the light on the parts work and. And it's. Yeah, you're right. There are many ways to look at it. But yes, I think that the bottom line is we have to love and honor all the parts. They're all there for a reason.
Darius: Yeah. So in a way, we're going back to one of these analogies we've used as the conductor of the orchestra. Yeah. The executive, you know, the main executive within yourself. Big me in this is the conductor. And then the orchestra is the little me's, if you will. One of the dynamics you talked about is being this one-man band, when all you
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Darius: need to be good at absolutely everything. And you're not meant to be good at absolutely everything. You're meant to be good at a few things. Really good at a few things. So instead of trying to be this one person, marching bands, doing absolutely everything, allow yourself to be good at the few things that you are meant to be good at and really excel at those.
Erica: Right. And bring in external band players.
Darius: Yes.
Erica: You don't have to play all the instruments.
Darius: Yeah. Let them share.
Erica: And there's something beautiful to being a part of a team.
Darius: Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
Erica: Yeah. That's why we have this podcast. The whole purpose of this podcast is that we've really spent a number of years learning from each other. We have very, very different views in many different ways. And even though we have very different views, we're open to listening to what each of us have to say and to see what's the value in that perspective. And I think that's one of the beauties. You know, anyone that listens to this podcast will see that we're very different people fundamentally. And. And. And that's one of the things that.
Darius: I love about this to 2026. I hope 2026 is a great year for you guys. This pod will come out probably at the beginning of 2026, I imagine.
Erica: Yeah.
Darius: I wish you all a really good 2026 and that you kind of embrace procrastination as a way to just understand what sort of drives you, you know, what's putting the brakes on what is motivating you, and embrace that and not make it this kind of. You're not a robot. You've got to do this. Got to do really efficient, efficient, efficient, efficient. It's about being effective. And executive function is fundamentally about being effective, not just being efficient, because being effective means achieving the outcome. And sometimes you can be very efficient at doing the most ridiculous thing that is not achieving the outcome, but it's very efficiently doing that activity, but not actually achieving the outcome. So I wish you a very effective new year.
Erica: Yeah. I hope you enjoyed this podcast. I think it's a way for us to also be gentler with ourselves and more accepting with all the different parts. And hopefully we gave you some strategies that can help you move through the procrastination that we all feel in the new year, because we always kind of set these new heights for ourselves.
Darius: Yeah. And I think the gentleness is not. There's a translation in the Bible where it says in the message, it says, God is kind, but he's not soft. And it's a curious phrase that's always stuck with me. And it's kind of like, kindness doesn't mean you're being soft with yourself or a soft touch. Kindness is, we're going to do this, but we're going to do this with kindness. It's kind of like. And we've kind of communicated that in this, I think. It's not like, oh, well, just be kind, and little me doesn't want to do it. It's like, no, no, no, no. We're going to do this one way or another, but in appropriate balance.
Erica: Partnership.
Darius: Absolutely. Partnership. Great. Didn't realize it would go there, Erica. I didn't. We never know where this is going to go. We. We don't have a script for this. We. We have no idea where this is going to go. But it's been great.
Erica: Yeah. It's always a fun process with you, Daris. Until next time.
Darius: Till next time. See ya.
Erica: Sponsored by good sensory learning.com engaging remedial materials that bring delight to learning.
Darius: Sponsored by Ivy. Imagine turning your meeting's audio into a live mind map instantly so you remember what matters. It's ideal for students and managers with dyslexia or adhd. Try ivvi for free now at Ivy App. That's ivvi.app. Thank you for joining us at the Executive Function Brain Trainer podcast.
Erica: Check out our show notes for links and resources and follow us on social media.
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