Erica: Welcome to the Personal Brain Trainer podcast. I'm Dr Erica Warren.

Darius: And I'm Darius Namdaran. And we're your hosts. Join us on an adventure to translate scientific jargon and brain research into simple metaphors and explanations for everyday life. We explore executive function and learning strategies that help turbocharge the mind.

Erica: Come learn to steer around the invisible barriers so that you can achieve your goals. This podcast is ideal for parents, educators, and learners of all ages. This podcast is brought to you by goodsensorylearning.com, where you can find educational and occupational therapy lessons and remedial materials that bring delight to learning. Finally, you can find Dr Warren's many courses at, learningspecialistcourses.com dot. Come check out our newest course on developing executive functions and study strategies.

Darius: This podcast is sponsored by dyslexiaproductivitycoaching.com. we give you a simple productivity system for your Apple devices that harnesses the creativity that comes with your dyslexia. Hi, Erika.

Erica: Hey, Darius. So, what are we going to be talking about today?

Darius: Well, last time we were talking about overwhelm and executive function, and we felt it would be good to talk about confusion and executive function. And I think it's interesting to just take this word confusion, and we can just mix up with overwhelm. It's a part of overwhelm. But I've noticed with adult clients, when we're sitting down, sometimes there's a distinction between being overwhelmed and confusion. And sometimes, you know that feeling of confusion where you're going round and round in circles, and you're just not quite sure what the next important priority is. Everything seems really important. It's more of a kind of prioritization thing that than anything else. And I really wanted to talk about that because what I found, and it might just be my own personal thing and with people I've met, but what your take is, and the idea is that sometimes when you're feeling confused, you need to sort of step back and make a map of everything that's going on and try and get everything on the one page. You know, like, sometimes the analogy I would use is when you're walking and hill walking and you're out and everything's going well, and then all of a sudden, you're in a woodland and you're like, oh, gosh, I'm, a bit confused. I'm on a path, but is this the right path? Am I going in the right direction? Obviously, you pull out your map, you look where you are, and you figure out where you are and where you're going, but the map is essential. And, sometimes when you can see everything, like you're in a workshop, okay. And you can see the thing you're working on. like, for me, it would be, I'm working on my boat, okay. And I can see the whole of my boat with one glance. I can see all of the tools, I can see the paint, I can see the materials, and so on. I can see what needs to happen all in one picture. But, and that's so helpful, especially if you've got executive function difficulties. Maybe you've got working memory difficulties. Maybe you're just feeling overwhelmed or busy brain. But when you get absorbed and you can see everything at once, it just gives you that clarity of how to prioritize what's next. But we can't always have it physically in front of us. So sometimes it's important to just stop and make some sort of mental map that we can put up on the wall or on a piece of paper or on our computer. What are your thoughts in terms of feeling confused and techniques for that?

Erica: My first gut instinct or my first reaction, that's the word I'm looking for, is, wait a minute. They're kind of the same thing, but I guess it's not, because if you're confused, it could lead to overwhelm. Or if you're confused, it could lead to a strategy. So confusion is almost a crossroads of okay. Or it's a warning signal saying, okay, you have an opportunity to do something about this feeling so that it doesn't become overwhelm. Is that pretty accurate?

Darius: Yeah, I think so. I like this warning thing. I think sometimes when you’re feeling overwhelmed and that kind of, oh, things are getting up to my throat, and I’m feeling like I’m beginning to drown

00:05:00

Darius: sort of thing. Those are signals to me, you know, and also confusion. That feeling of confusion is a signal to me, and I’ve kind of internalized it. Like, when I’m feeling confused, I say to myself, stop and look at the map. And I go, what map? And I go, well, I don't have a map. Well, then I need to make one. And then sometimes I go, stop, look at the map. And I go, oh, yeah, yeah, I do have a map. I've got a mind map of this, or I've got a flow diagram, or I've got a chart. Or, you know, you could have a one, three, five goal matrix or, some sort of everything on one page kind of plan. You just stop and look at the plan.

Erica: or a manual. Or if you're a student in the classroom, you may raise your hand and ask a question, because confusion means I don't know. I don't know. Or I have conflicting information, and I need clarity so I can move forward.

Darius: And it's kind of this feeling of being located, you know, it's like, I don't know where I am. Do you remember in the old days when there wasn't gps? You would get lost, and you would have to get the map out. Okay. And there's one thing having the map, and there's another thing figuring out where you actually are on the map.

Erica: Right.

Darius: You know that thing. You're like, we're here, and we're going there. And someone goes, no, no, we're not there. I think we're over here. And you're like, really? And at, some point, you got to get out. Look at your, oh, there's a church over there, there's a pub over there, and that's the street name. Such and such. And there's another street name over there. And you find, oh, gosh, we are over there. And you've got to kind of locate yourself. And that feeling of orient. That's it. You got to yourself.

Erica: Orientation. orienting yourself. Or it could even be orienting your thoughts. Right. So a student might be confused because they're like, well, they've learned three different ways to do a certain mathematical problems and problem, and they're getting them all mixed up. So it's really an opportunity to say, to stop. Either ask for help from an expert or find a map that's already been created. Create your own map.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: Right. So confusion is really an opportunity for.

Darius: You to orientate yourself on a map of your world. That world. So if you're doing a particular project, I'm a bit confused where it's like, teacher comes along and says, right, here's the diagram of the science experiment. You are. This is where you are in that process. And you're like, ah, that's where I am. Do you know what I mean? It's that sense, where am I?

Erica: And you could look at an outline. Oh, I have a thought, but I'm confused. Where does it fit? Oh, I'll go to the. Oh, it fits under this heading. But I think that there are in many ways that we can be confused. We can be confused in a new job, or you're learning something, like completely new. And this is the interesting thing. I'm thinking of something very specific for myself, so I've been learning a whole new system for creating assessments and oh my gosh, I get confused all the time. What I can do is I have a couple options. I can read their help documents, which don't help that much because I really like a visual. I can watch videos and I'm very happy when they have a video. What's even better for me is when I can hop on live with somebody and they can give me a demonstration so that I can have that direct contact where we have a conversation. You know, some people do really well with just watching or watching a video or a manual. But I love that interactive feel of being in a video. Sorry, in a made perhaps a Zoom call with somebody where we can have a dialogue to work through the confusion.

Darius: I suppose what I love the most, and I'm wondering whether I'm projecting this on as a default solution, is I love a map. You know, I love a flow chart, or I love a diagram. I love something that shows, that symbolizes everything on one page. Where, what is the outline of this world that I'm in of that software or whatever, and where am I? And just this outline, I suppose a visual outline of the world you're in.

Erica: Your best ways of processing, based on what I know about you, is you're very visual. So you like to see something visual, but you also love something to be simultaneous so that you can see the big picture.

Darius: I do.

Erica: And you also, you'll also really enjoy if there's a certain sequence within that big picture

00:10:00

Erica: so that you can. Right. So that you can zoom in or zoom out, but you kind of digest the whole thing. So yes, for anybody, that is what you call a simultaneous processor, a sequential processor or visual processor. And in your case, you're all three, which is why it is so extraordinarily helpful for you. Whereas for me, I like the visual, but I need some discourse, I need to dialogue with somebody about it. So that makes me verbal, so I'm verbal, visual interactive and direct experience. So but this is the fascinating thing, is that depending on how your best ways of processing are, really helps to define on what your best approach is to get through confusion. So for example, if you were a very tactile person, how could you get through confusion if you needed to touch things?

Darius: Yeah, yeah. I’m just going to pause for a moment. That’s a great question. Let me just summarize what I’ve realized from the last episode. So the last episode was overwhelm. Okay. And what we learned from that was do what it takes to generate capacity. Overwhelm is saying, I'm at my max capacity. And we really locked onto that working memory as a rapid way of expanding capacity. There are other ways to do it, but it's just a quick win. You know, emptying things into the notes and creating that garage of extra space from that hallway of working memory was our analogy in the last one. So the goal in the last one was to create capacity when you're feeling overwhelmed, create capacity. And the goal in this one, when you're feeling confused, is to find a way to orientate yourself. And I've started it by saying, I orientate myself by finding a map. And you're saying, you orientate yourself by finding a person, discussing, that's your way. Where am I? Where are we going? What's happening here?

Erica: Now, if they gave me a map, too, even better, because I do like that visual component, and I'm also a simultaneous processor. So I love to see the big picture. But what trumps above that, above all, is being able to have that dialogue. So I need a verbal piece, but I think that everybody is a little different. So, for example, let's say you were tactile.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: You might need a compass, right? Something you could hold onto. And a map would serve someone that's tactile, but they would want to touch it. They would want to put their finger on the different places to help them get oriented.

Darius: Or they might have, like, a string and pin it on a cork board and feel that the string like the movies, you know, and stick on post its and so on. Because some people really love this kind of very physical. Like, I'm going to put a post it up here. I'm going to take a photo here. I'm going to create this sort of collage of ideas so that I can orientate myself.

Erica: Right. It's a little bit more physical. So I like the sticky note piece. Or even you might draw the map yourself, because then you really can feel it almost internally, and it helps to spatialize it for you.

Darius: Or you might kind of prototype it in cardboard or something like that. So if you were making something, you might go, I don't have the time to make it out in metal or whatever. Then you might get some cardboard out, stick it all up together. And I met, an investor in this company considering investing in ivy. And he was saying that he invested in straws with these little connectors for kids at school to prototype making things. And then actually NASA picked it up, and a lot of universities picked it up because they realized they could prototype molecules and chemicals and so on with these straws and connectors. Clever connectors. And so this tactile prototyping might be another way of orientating yourself.

Erica: That's beautiful. I love that. And it also makes it three dimensional and more spatial, which is great for those that love spatialization.

Darius: Yes. So if we were to connect this to the executive functions. Okay, so we're talking about this at the processing level, the process level, which.

Erica: Is really the entrance way into executive functions.

Darius: That's right.

Erica: Working memory.

Darius: Yes. So we've got the processing of the information to bring it up and present it to our executive functions. And then we've got the three executive functions of working memory, inhibitory control, and cognitive flexibility. In many ways, this has got more to do with, cognitive flexibility and inhibitory control. So I think a lot of this has to do with cognitive flexibility,

00:15:00

Darius: in that cognitive, flexibility is seeing a bigger picture, adapting to this environment, and it's this being adaptive to being adaptive.

Erica: And being able to look at it from different perspectives. Oh, I guess I'm not here. I'm over here. Oh, that changed how I perceive where I am.

Darius: That's right.

Erica: Right. Or even transitions. So. Right.

Darius: So we've got a processing element of this, which is fascinating out of this conversation, because I process a particular way, you process a slightly different way, a, tactile person process a slightly different way. But we're both coming to the same goal, which is, how do I orientate myself in this? How do I cognitively adapt? And I'm flexible, adjust my map to reality. And in a way, there's two elements, three elements to this. There's the map is not the territory, where we have to constantly adapt our internal map of the world to the world and adjust from feedback. And we basically redraw our map to be more and more close to the territory. And then we've also got to orientate ourselves. Where are we on our map of that territory? So there's the orientating on the map and making sure the map is accurate to the territory. In this whole discussion, you know, you got to have a decent map and know where you are in that map. And the nature of that map is different. I mean, basically what we're saying is if you process a certain way, the tactile, as an example, you have to have a very tactile map. It might be a 3d model, you know, construction of it. For me, it might be a very 2d dimensional mind map, for example. For you, it would be. What would it be for you?

Erica: This is interesting because, what's fascinating is to really consider it from the twelve ways of processing. So we've talked about visual, we haven't talked about auditory. So maybe auditory would be an audio map.

Darius: What would be an audio map?

Erica: An audio map would just be somebody explaining the territory. And you would probably. So they would explain it to you and then you could visualize it. Maybe you don't. Maybe you're auditory and logical, reflective. In which case you're just going to think about it and you're going to.

Darius: Yeah. Your kind of creating a blueprint or a sequence or a like, a code system. You know, it might be coding.

Erica: It doesn't have to be visual. It could be. It could be more through words. It could be more spatial. It could be more logical.

Darius: What, a written list of sequences, instructions and that. Logical, yeah, yeah.

Erica: For people that don't necessarily want the visual piece, and they just want just the sequential.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: The step-by-step process, then we've talked about virtually all of them, because we've talked about verbal, we've talked about interactive, is just that you have other people to do it with indirect experiences watching somebody do it, which is a guide, right?

Darius: Yes, yes.

Erica: Someone could take you through the map or take you through the process.

Darius: Well, they would be pointing. where am I? What's happening here? Oh, that's over there. That's over there. That's over there. They're pointing to different things, you know, and that sort of. Yeah.

Erica: And then the direct experience would actually be. Have them take you through the map, take you through process. And then finally rhythmic, melodic, which is really more of, being able to pair a rhythm or a beat to what you're learning. I'll give you an example. If you take an academic example, learning the quadratic equation through pop goes the weasel, which there is a really good one that does that. Or even just taking the Alphabet song. Imagine learning the Alphabet without the Alphabet song. A song just kind of carries you through a memory schema.

Darius: Yes, that's right.

Erica: A sequential schema.

Darius: And it's like a map as well. You know, it's an audio map. Again, it's a song you can locate where you are in the music.

Erica: You are in that sequence, and it expands working memory.

Darius: Yeah, yeah.

Erica: You know, so it's interesting. So I think we're onto something pretty fascinating. So, you know, one of the ways to manage confusion is to map it in a way that honors your processing.

Darius: Yes. Yes. So you've got these two dynamics. I would say the map is the cognitive, flexibility piece, mapping, orientating yourself in a map, that orientation. And then what type of map is the processing piece?

00:20:00

Darius: Which is what type of map do you like?

Erica: Right? Like, do you like to read a book and visualize it, or do you like to listen to an audiobook? You can listen your way through a map. You could see yourself through a map. You could sequence yourself through a map. You can touch your way through a map. You can follow someone through a map. There are all these different ways. And what works best for you by defining your best ways of processing, then it gives you a way to manage confusion so that when that feeling comes, you can say, oh, that's right. I need to talk about this. I'm very verbal. I need to process this and discuss it. And I see you have a good thought. Tell me.

Darius: Let me tell you a funny story my wife shared with me this week. It was hilarious. So we started this new relationship with some marketing company, and they communicate with us differently, okay. Then she's used to. And she sat down with me this one morning, and she said, Darius, I know how you feel now with dyslexia, because what this guy does is he sends us these loom videos. A video that describes what he's saying. He just records himself. He records his screen, and it's like a three, four, five-minute video, okay? And she says, it's a nightmare for me because when I press the video, I just don't process information like that. I want to see it written down as an email. I just wish I had the email of things written down. Whereas me, I don't want to see it written down. I want him to show it to me and talk me through it. That's heaven for me, you know? So the video is heaven for me and its hell for her, because what she has to do is she has to watch the video, then type it all out into her language of sequential words, and that's her sorted. She's got her sequence, but it's very laborious. Whereas for me, I'm the other way around. I have to take that sequential sequence of words and translate it into a mind map or some diagram or something that works with my visual mind. So I'm constantly doing this translation piece. Okay. Now, what we're seeing in this exercise of what type of map do you like, okay. Is so important because I've met with clients and they're like, but Darius, I don't like using mind maps. I know you think they're really important. They're really helpful, great for dyslexia. And I said, yes, I know, but they're, not necessarily the answer for you or everyone. But the principle of making a map is important. How do you want to make a map? And they're like, well, I'm not so sure. And we go through it. And sometimes they love doing on Miro, for example. I mean, one amazing experience I did with the client was he was trying to get his head round how to rewrite his website, and what he was finding was clicking through all of the pages on the website. Just got him confused about me, contents, homepage, just couldn't get the big picture and just constantly swirling around. So I said, well, why don't you take each page and paste it into Miro? And I showed him how to do it. Miro is a whiteboarding tool, and so he could lay out every single page on his website, on Miro and just go around it like it was a map. All the images, everything, the text, he could zoom in, zoom out. He had the big picture, and then he was like, oh, and he breathed out because he could see everything at once. And I think that is the key thing in it all, is find a way where you can step back and see everything at once. And the spin we're putting on it is in your language, in the language that you process in.

Erica: Well, it's interesting because you say that he can see the big picture. Well, then he was a simultaneous processor. That's what he needed.

Darius: No, no, no. I'm not sure if, I know you're putting it into the simultaneous processing, but the thing is, what I would contend here is that there's a moment everyone needs to simultaneously process in this moment. This is the contention I'm making, basically, in that moment. There's a time when you're feeling confused, where you do need some sort of map where you can see everything simultaneously. And it might not necessarily be. And this would be perfect for simultaneous processes. They'll just naturally do this, but there's other people who don't naturally do this, but you do need to get to a point sometimes every executive team knows this. They've just got to step back

00:25:00

Darius: and just see the big picture, even if it's once a year, so they don't.

Erica: Lose the little pieces. And that makes sense, too, because even if you go back and think about that tactile person that took all their sticky notes and put them all on a wall, and then they can step back and see the big picture. I think that there is. I know it works for me. I know it works for you. We could come across somebody that says, oh, and I've had students like this, don't show me the big picture, because they had. They go into overwhelm. They go into overwhelm.

Darius: Interesting.

Erica: They can't process it. It's too much. They want to break it into more manageable chunks. And sometimes what would work better for someone like that is a sequence, because it's not too overwhelming. First you do this, and then they can jump from. They can still have the whole sequence in front of them, but they don't have to process it simultaneously.

Darius: What about this, then? Because executive function isn't necessary for everyone. That's an extreme statement. Okay, that's very extreme. If you are being told what to do all the time, you're a factory worker. You've got to get up, you've got to do this, you've got to do that. Someone else is being the executive of your life. And just telling you, this is what you do. You know, duh duh duh duh, prison, whatever. This is what you're doing, end of story. There's very little executive function required to actually function because someone else is being the executive of your life. But the contention I would make is, if you want to start becoming the executive of your life, and more and more people need to be the executive of the life. This world of being told what you're doing is rapidly evaporating, and you have to become more of an executive of your life, then you're going to need to really take responsibility for working. Memory, inhibitor control, and cognitive flexibility. And a key part of cognitive flexibility is making maps. Now, it might be overwhelming, but it is making a map of your world in order to decide what you're going to focus on and where you're going to go. Now, for this person, the student, they might be overwhelmed, but maybe you say, right, we're not going to map the whole territory. We're just going to look around us in this environment, and I want you to figure out what is the best route from this.

Erica: We're going to zoom in on a piece of the map.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: Until you're comfortable looking at the whole.

Darius: Map, and then you're comfortable deciding in what direction to go. And once you've made that decision what direction to go, then inhibitory control comes in. I'm going to stick to that decision. I'm going to stay on that course. I'm going to keep that course. I'm not going to get distracted from that course.

Erica: Right. Well, you know, the other interesting thing I was thinking about with confusion and executive functioning and even mapping is sometimes we want to manifest our future, we want to guide the direction of our future. I might say, this is who I want to be, this is what I want to do, and this is what. Or this is what I want to achieve. And one really great way to do that, which is really interesting, is vision boards. And what vision boards are, are maps.

Darius: They are.

Erica: And the beautiful thing about vision boards is it can really accommodate many different ways of processing. If you like words, you can put words on your vision board. If you like images, you can put images on your vision board. If you like symbols, you can put symbols on your vision board. So you can make them tactile. You can do a, ah, collage, you can make a sculpture. You can do it in multiple ways. But it's interesting how I've noticed with many of my students, when they are in a place of confusion about where they are and where they want to go, I'll often do two vision kind of boards with them. One is where are you? Because once you can see where you are, then you can usually see your way out. And then once we do where they are, then I'll say, okay, where do you want to be? Right? But once you have that, then all of a sudden, they know how to get out of the confusion, they know how to get out of that bottleneck or that wherever they are. So there really is something to maps. And I think what's really working for me from this discussion is that take the word map and let's make it bigger. When we say map, it doesn't have to be a visual map, because that's what we typically think of. It can be a verbal map, it can be an auditory map, it can be a tactile map. But it's the idea that of maps, but just expanding the definition so that you can process it in the way that's most comfortable for you.

Darius: Absolutely. So my definition, of

00:30:00

Darius: this mapping would be get everything onto one page. So take the Alphabet song. All the 26 letters are in the Alphabet song. That's a map of the Alphabet. There you go. Okay. If you've got a project to do with your boat, everything to do with that project on one page or in one space. You know how sometimes when you're going packing or whatever, you just decide right I'm going to get everything that I need. I'm going to put it in the lounge. I'm going to lay on the floor, and you've got all your pieces in one place. And then you go, ah. yes, right. Something deep inside of us that just needs to see everything in one place at one point. It doesn't have to be all the time, but you need that moment where you're like, right, I've got it all. And there's a defining outline to it, you know, because what's happening inside, I think, is, sometimes when all these scattered and confusing things are floating in your head, you can expand the scope, and it all feels so overwhelming. And this is tying into the overwhelm. You go, right, let's capture all of those notes and ideas and get them down. That manages your capacity. But sometimes you can still feel confused. Let's take all of those pieces, lay them all out, and then you realize, oh, gosh, it's not as big or as monstrous a task as I thought. There's not as many web pages that I've got to deal with as I thought. Not as much letters in the Alphabet as I thought. It's manageable. Do you know what I mean? Because it's defined.

Erica: You're right. And I think that our working memory is so limited. And by creating big pictures, even if we can't, even if we do get a sense of overwhelm from the big picture, we can at least zoom in and see how things are connected. And we have a mutual friend, Stan gloss. There have been times where he's been on a zoom with me, and he's like, look at my wall. And he's. That's how he organizes his life. So he, he does it through sticky notes on a wall, and he has a whole wall, and he has little sticky notes all over the place. And when he needs to, he can reorganize things and. Or you can color code things, or you can change a sticky note and say, well, maybe that doesn't work, and you crumple it up and you grab another one, and you change it up a little bit. But yeah. And I really want to invite anybody that's listening to this to really think about what is the best way for you to navigate confusion. What are the tips and techniques, and what is the type of map that helps you to get back into a productive mode?

Darius: Yes, yes, absolutely. And, once you discover what that map is, you don't need to be using it necessarily all the time, but you know that moment where you're feeling your head spinning a little bit, you go, maybe I need to look at the map. And you get that map out, you sing that song, you go, look at that wall. You go, open up that mind map. You go, do, look at that drawing or diagram you did.

Erica: And you go or go to apple notes. Go to apple notes and dump it all into one note and go back into that note, you know? So whatever it is that allows you to just pull it all together, get on, orientate yourself. Yeah, orient yourself.

Darius: And it could be like my wife who needs an outline of all the steps. Oh, we're at, step 6.3 in the 13, step program, you know, and you're like, yeah, great. I've orientated myself back to where it is. And sometimes it's just a moment, it could just be a minute, it could be three minutes. You could look at your vision board and you go, Ah, yes, that's what's important. And I think there are so many great tools now that help us create, different kinds of maps. And I, mean, the vision board thing, I think is so important. And I've noticed with clients, anyone who's our age and has done a vision board before has got that picture of hours and hours and days and days cutting up magazines and trying to find the right picture and sticking it all together and creating some sort of paper vision board, which is a lovely, crafty kind of exercise. But it's surprising what you can do in half an hour. You just get open up, PowerPoint or Canva split screen it. On one side you've got google images, the other side you've got a Canva, and you just drag them across, drop, drop, resize, reorientate them. And one of the blockers for clients, when I often spend just a session doing a vision board and

00:35:00

Darius: they're like, oh, maybe I should, maybe I shouldn't. I think, let's just try it. So they do it, they always love it and it's transformative. But what's so surprising in half an hour, they get to a point where I'm not sure what my long-term goals are. And it's like, well, we're not going to think about long term goals. Your criteria for your vision board are what's important to you. Your vision board. All it is right now to remind you what's important. Your mother. Take a photo of your mother. Put it down there. Your grandfather, your father, your brother, your sister, your children, your hobbies, your health. And once you start thinking about, oh, this is to help me remember what's important. It transforms your approach to a vision board because you're less fixated on this is what the smart outcome is and quantifying it and so on, which I think you do at a level below vision board. And then you can set goals that are more precise and that will inform your vision board later on. But to get you started, just drop-down pictures of things that you want to remind you of what's important in your life.

Erica: Yeah. And also remember that you can do a vision board for virtually anything. You could do a vision board to manifest the type of student you want to be. You could do a vision board about a profession you want to achieve. you could do it about the type of house you would like to have, but you can really do it about the type of relationship you would like to have, the type of people you would like to attract into your life. So you can do it about virtually anything. And, yeah, I guess it can help us all move through confusion.

Darius: Yeah. great episode next week. What are we going to concentrate on? You had a great idea for next week. Yeah.

Erica: Next week we're going to talk about untangling the strategies for the chronically disorganized.

Darius: Oh, fantastic. I'm looking forward to it. I've seen the outline of what we're going to talk about there. That's going to be great fun.

Erica: It is. I'm looking forward to it.

Darius: Well, till next time, Erica.

Erica: Till next time. Thank you for joining our conversation here at the Personal Brain trainer podcast. This is Dr Erica Warren and Darius Namdaran.

Darius: Check out the show notes for links to resources mentioned in the podcast. And please leave us a review and share us on social media until next time. Bye.