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Episode 83: The Transition to College and the Impact of Executive Function

Below you can view or listen to Episode 83 of The Personal Brain Trainer Podcast.    

In this episode of The Executive Function Braintrainer Podcast, hosts Darius Namdaran and Dr. Erica Warren explore the crucial transition from high school to college and its impact on executive functions. They discuss the importance of planning, organization, and independence, comparing approaches in the UK and the US. Using the metaphor of a butterfly emerging from a chrysalis, they emphasize the need for students to develop their executive skills to navigate the challenges of college life effectively. Practical strategies, tools like Shovel and ivvi, and tips for parents and educators to support this transition are also discussed to help students build a solid foundation for success.

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    Erica: Welcome to the Executive Function Brain trainer podcast. I'm Dr. Erica Warren.

    Darius: And I'm Darius Namdaran and we're your hosts.

    Erica: Sponsored by the Executive Functions Coaching and Study Strategies certification course, a comprehensive training for educators, coaches and parents.

    Darius: Sponsored by Ivy. Imagine turning your meeting's audio into a live mind map instantly so you remember what matters. Well, try ivvi for free now at ivvi.app. that's ivvi.app. hello, Erica. How are you doing?

    Erica: Good, Darius, how are you?

    Darius: Doing great, doing great. Turning my attention to the ideas of college and university and so on. So let's talk about it, shall we?

    Erica: Yeah. Transitioning from high school to college is a big deal and we don't really highlight it enough. So let's talk about the impact on executive functions.

    Darius: Yeah, I mean, we talk about these transitions. A lot of intention is given between the transition in the UK from primary school to high school. You know, there's lots of visits for a day or two to get used to the environment, to climatize. There are schemes of mentors and buddies and all, all sorts of things to help with that transition. But from high school to university or college, it's just like this complete. Right. You're on your own, you're an adult, you're an independent, off you go, you know, fly. And

    Erica: Right. And there's almost no communication between the institutions of high school and then college there. It's like severed.

    Darius: That's right.

    Erica: And, and I think parents, I hear this all the time with my clients of parents really struggling with, oh my gosh, I don't think my son or daughter is ready, you know, what are they going to do without me? Type attitude.

    Darius: That's right, yeah. And, and the number one thing is executive functions. That is the number one thing during that transition, which basically means how to get stuff done and be the executive of your life. You know, you're literally going from a really structured home environment, school environment, routines.

    Erica: Rhythms, into parents getting you out of bed.

    Darius: That's right, yeah.

    Erica: And checking to see if you got your work in and hiring you tutors and helping you edit and. Yeah. To no longer at home anymore. They have to, they have to fly from the nest and see if they can make it on their own. Absolutely. there's just not a lot of structure there to support them. And although there are features like disability services or you can put your son or daughter into a college program to support these skills. Yeah. They're not always that good.

    Darius: Can I give you what I think is the ending right at the beginning. Okay. So I think the conclusion right at the beginning is useful to have for listeners to see whether we are going in direction that they might resonate with. So. And I'll start with a story about a butterfly. Okay. So have you ever raised butterflies yourself?

    Erica: No.

    Darius: So when we had kids, we got these little butterfly kits with a, mesh, and the caterpillar. We fed the caterpillar, and then it went into the chrysalis. And then it got to the point where it was time for the butterfly to come out. And the butterfly is trying so hard to come out, and it's so tempting to just pierce that little cocoon and just ease it out, you know? But if you pierce that cocoon and ease it out, when it comes out, its wings aren't strong enough to fly. It needs some strength of pushing and breaking out to build the muscles in the wing to be able to then fly. And I think that's part of the issue between high school and college. Sometimes the students haven't had that kind of breaking out of the cocoon exercise so that when they go into college, you've maybe helped them get into college. Those wings still a full butterfly. Those wings aren't strong enough to fly. And I think this episode is really about what sort of things do we do to help these young people fly.

    Erica: I think you're right. It. That really resonates with me, and it's making me even think of a couple of my own students right now that, yeah, you know, how do you pull away the scaffolding enough that they are able to strengthen their own

    00:05:00

    Erica: skills? And what are the resources that we can show them? You know, I wish I could talk. In the United States, we move from putting all of their homework online, whether it's in Google Classroom or, a variety of other ones, to them going to college. And they're handed a syllabus. And for some reason in high school, I wish that their junior and senior year, they would get a syllabus, because that's part of what we need to be doing to prepare them to be able to fly. And I often see that there are those kids that go to college, and they can't fly. And I feel like that is a missing piece within our system that shouldn't be that difficult to employ, to be able to offer a semester syllabi so that we can teach them with some support, how to organize their time. However, to wish that doesn't really help us through the reality of what there is. So let's see if we can offer Some suggestions and some support on how to get through the system that we have. I'm sure it's different in the UK.

    Darius: I don't think it's that much different. I think it's pretty similar. I think I'm imagining the ideal listener here right now being a young 18-year-old, 17-year-old student who's like hungry to make this transition. Well, they've probably got some sort of ADHD traits, some dyslexic traits, or some sort of executive function. You know, they're a bit creative, they may be not so, maybe a bit creative chaos and so on. They're maybe not the most naturally organized person in the world. And then the other person I think is their counterparty which is probably like a mother who's really supported. And between the two of them they've got them across the line, they've got them into university, got them into college. And as a young person you're like 80% doing it yourself and 20% not. And you get that feeling that you're pretty independent. But then you go out into college and that 20%, what is that 20%? That's your shopping, that's paying your bills, that's you know, organizing things to get done on time and remembering that needs done. And then you realize if you don't, you're just stuffed, you know. And so that 20% that mom's kind of doing at the moment just to make sure things just get along, keep along, go along, you're on your own. And it's incredibly hard, incredibly hard. If you're a little bit neurodiverse to make these things happen. And you still need to go away and do it. But what you do need is some basic survival skill strategies of knowing the right tools. It's like going out into the mountains and camping. You know, someone's taught you how to strike that flint match thing and start a little fire and get a big fire going or how to do it when things are wet or how to put the tent up while the things are, the rain is going and how to, you know, do this, that and the next thing. Just basic survival skills of getting by in life within college.

    Erica: Yeah, yeah. and if we were going to make that directly applicable, you know, how to get all of your work done in one week where you've got five tests, how to manage your homework load, how to have enough time to be able to get from one class to the next, all of these little things that when to eat, when to do your Laundry and how to get out of your room and make friends. I mean, I work with some college students that are just super isolated. They just do their work in their room and little else.

    Darius: I think the whole realm of executive functions or maybe a weakness in an executive function like working memory or inhibitory control, cognitive flexibility, either one of them can have some significant domino effects or a little bit of ADHD or a little bit of dyslexia or whatever. Processing difficulties. These things can have massive domino effects at this transition point.

    Erica: Yeah, I mean, what I'm seeing is the major crux of the issue is this is the first time where we're seriously moving from kind of lower-level executive functions to more higher-level executive functions like independently planning, time management and organization. And this is where they have to manage

    00:10:00

    Erica: themselves. And if they have not had enough scaffolding or if they haven't had enough opportunity to do these things on their own. You know, it's funny because the kids surprise me. Some kids, I think, ooh, this is going to be tough. And they just rise to the occasion. And sometimes it's the opposite where you think, okay, they've got all the tools. I've shown them, their parents have shown them. And then they get there and it's just like, nope, yes, they drop down the social rabbit hole or they, you know, there, there's so many little possible rabbit holes that they can fall in. You know, there's some that get too socially isolated, others are too social, you know. Yeah, yeah, some just can't get up in the morning and they miss too many classes. Yeah, you know, some are avoidant where they're just overtaxing their system. But. But yeah, I wish there were more transitional services.

    Darius: So let's think through what would be the minimum sort of toolkit. Yeah, I think you kind of need to have a minimum toolkit to go out on this expedition. And I think one of the things I've observed is that this idea you said about, what was it, you know, like? Planning. Planning. You were talking about how important planning is. And I think sometimes planning a journey or a trip is just a really nice sort of project to incorporate a ton of executive functions. I'll give you an example. Let's say they're saying, right, I want, I'm going to go. I think before university, it's really helpful for a young person to have traveled somewhere. They don't have to travel around the world, but they've traveled somewhere on their own or with someone else, or ideally on their own or with Another person, if they're a female and need some security and safety, but that they've planned it, they're not just going along for the ride. That's the point I'm making. So, for example, they go on the website, and they decide, right, I'm going to book this ticket, I'm going to save that ticket into my notes. I'm going to take a note of what my code is. I'm going to make sure I've got my passport or documentation. I'm going to make sure it's in my calendar and I've got the date and the time in there. I'm going to make sure that I've got reminders set for the night before, for the alarm in the morning, and all of these kind of little things that we kind of take for granted as adults. But in a way, that's a really good exercise to just say, oh my goodness, I've got to get myself a calendar. Oh my goodness, what am I going to take my notes on? And what if I don't have Internet? What am I going to do? I'm going to have to have something, something not just to rely on going to the website and then suddenly realizing I don't have Internet. So I've got to take some backup notes. And, you've got to think this kind of strategic forward thinking, metacognition, executive function planning. I think that's a really good exercise.

    Erica: I also think that it's important to help your kids to feel more independent in the arena of money. So, you know, during high school, it's not a bad idea for them to have their own, checking account, their own atm, their own credit card that you can't. You, you can monitor them while they're still in high school. After that, it's almost impossible to monitor them. So that there is some kind of transition towards independence. Do they know how to maintain their car? Because they don't know how to change their oil or put air in their tires or put gas in the tank. That could create some major problems. How are you going to manage paying for different bills, whether they're on campus, off campus, being able to get their own textbooks, but, you know, transitioning, over and giving them more and more responsibility. So even in high school saying, okay, yeah, so it's your junior year this year, and, and you have to get all your school supplies. So I'm going to give you a hundred dollars or two hundred dollars or how much you want to give them and say, all right, now here's the money. I'm going to let you do it yourself this time.

    Darius: Yeah.

    Erica: So what's your system going to be so that you're just planning to give them more and more responsibility and thinking about. Because it's different from when we were kids. What do kids need these days? And having those conversations with your, your kids so you know what they're up against. Because it's amazing how parents really aren't in the know of the world that the kids live in. You know, so many of these kids are living on social media, so they've got things pulling on their attention that we couldn't even conceptualize.

    00:15:00

    Erica: And how are they going to manage, you know, scrolling, how are they going to manage all of those things that are completely different factors than we dealt with.

    Darius: Okay. So I think that what's interesting here is identifying those learning opportunities as a parent or an educator. And when you get those learning opportunities, it's crucial to capitalize on them, even if they're very early. So if you're going to give your child a phone, whatever, when you give them the phone, that's your opportunity to start talking to them about social media and opening up that conversation. That's your opportunity to start saying, you're not allowed to keep your password secret from me. I'm allowed to know everything on your mobile phone until you're 16, for example. I mean, that's one of the rules we had with our children. I'm allowed to go on your phone, I'm allowed to read every single text message, I'm allowed to read every single social media post, everything. I've got complete access. And I want you to know that, okay, in advance. You've got privacy in your own space, but on your phone you do not. And that's a really big deal for us. I mean, that's the sort of thing that can save your child's life.

    Erica: That's really interesting. I love that. I love that idea until you're 16. But being completely open and honest and so that there are no misunderstandings and if they know that from the get-go, they're going to be okay with it. But I often see that parents start to apply those rules after the kids had their phones for a while. And it's a big problem.

    Darius: It is. And it's the same thing as if the parent starts to apply those kind of principles after the learning moment has passed, as it were. Do you know what I mean? So let's say, for example, the car oil, okay, like when that child is learning to drive the car. You don't teach them how to look after the car two months after they've learned to drive or, you know, before they're going to college. You do it when they're learning to drive the car, right, let's pull in, let's learn how to change the oil, let's learn how to do the washing liquid, let's change a tire. And they're like, all right, okay, this is what you have to do. Because often the child is in the space ready and hungry to learn. They're in that learning moment. And I think one of the core, the three core things that I find I have to keep teaching people with executive functions with dyslexia and ADHD is how to take notes, how to make maps, and how to set reminders. They, they end up, and I mean, in the broadest sense, when you, When I say take a note, it doesn't have to be on Apple notes. It could be on a post. It, it could be written down. It could be anywhere. And, when I say make maps, it doesn't need to be a mind map. It could be a Miro board. But the point is, get everything in one place so you can see the big picture. And when it comes to reminders, it doesn't need to be on the reminder’s app on the phone, but it could be an alarm, it could be a vision board. But basically, these three-core fun are absolutely vital in this transition. Taking notes, making maps, setting goals, taking notes means have you got the details? Making maps is. Have you got the big picture of what's happening, the timeline, the flow, the chart, the map of your route to your destination. And then the third one is, have you set yourself reminders in your calendar, in your wherever to make sure that you stay on track. And if they're in their first moment of planning a journey or doing something or whatever, you've always got these learning moments as an adult, and we kind of need to be ready in advance to sort of jump on that learning moment and take advantage of it.

    Erica: Yeah, I think you're right. I, you know, it's interesting because I have an executive functioning coaching course, and for those that are interested, they can take a final and then they can get a certificate. And one of the people that went through my program, Kim, she said something to me last week in our oral final that just so resonated with me, and she was talking about how important it is that we get students to organize all of their, for example, Google Docs, but just that, we were talking a Little bit about categorizing things, organizing things, labeling things. And she says she'll often bring this up to her students, and her students will say, like, oh, no, everything's fine. And she'll say, okay, because she said, they use the Google system. She says, all right, well, open up Google Docs and I want you to do a search for Untitled. And she says it works every time because they see how many Untitled documents they have. And I thought that was just such a brilliant way to pull them into

    00:20:00

    Erica: how important it is that we're labeling things, that we're putting things into folders. Because I think the vast majority of us, and of course you and I, all of these tools were built, and we kind of fell into them as they were being built. So I know my materials aren't as organized as I would like to be. I cannot wait. I really want to take, like, three or four days and go through all of my documents and get them so that they're super organized. Have you had the opportunity to do that yet?

    Darius: Well, I've got something a little bit controversial on that. You know, I kind of push back on that just a little bit. Erica. Okay? So when I'm meeting with adult clients and we're talking about their strategy, I say to them, look, there are some people who file. Okay? And some people who don't. Okay? I am one of the people who. Who doesn't file, okay?

    Erica: Meaning that you don't have, like, I'm.

    Darius: not going to put things in folders.

    Erica: Okay?

    Darius: Okay. I wish I was, and I wish I could consistently do it, but I don't, and I feel really bad about it, okay. And a lot of my clients are like, I feel really bad about it as well. I'm like 40, 50 years old, still not filing important stuff away, and it's a nightmare. I can't find anything important, and it's really costing me a lot of time. It's costing my reputation in the workplace. It's just a nightmare, and I don't know what to do about it. So my strategy is slightly to hack it, okay? And this is what I do. I say, look, the goal is not to be organized. The goal is not to be efficient. The goal is to be effective. That's the goal. Effective. Do you want to be effective? Yes. Most people don't want to be efficient. Most people don't want to be organized. They just want to be effective, okay. Especially if you're not a very good filer. Okay? So I want to be effective. All right, now for Me, to be effective, I need to have a digital memory where I can make a digital note in less than 20 seconds, and I need to be able to find that digital memory in less than 20 seconds. If I can do that, then it's working. If it takes me two minutes to find it, I don't have a memory. I have a storage space. And most people just have a storage space that takes two minutes to 15 minutes to find anything. So the deal is, if you want to be effective, you've got to find a place where you can find something in less than 20 seconds and store it in less than 20 seconds. And they're like, oh gosh, I'm going to do everything like that. And I'm like, yeah, we're not going to do everything. We're only going to do what's important. So if you think it's important, we're going to put it in a digital memory where you can find it in less than 20 seconds. Are you up for that? That's your license number, your national insurance number, the link to your ticket for the next train trip you're doing, the link to your Airbnb, the link to whatever, you know, all these kind of crucial things. If you don't have it, your life goes pear shaped for that day, you know. And so once you limit it and you say, look, I'm just going to do it for what's really important, which is about 10% of things. And I'm not going to file, I'm going to tag, I'm going to use keywords that I can search and find.

    Erica: So a lot of people you're still labeling. Obviously, they're not going to be untitled.

    Darius: They're not untitled, you're correct.

    Erica: But they're not in folders.

    Darius: Yes, they're not in folders. So here's the deal that we end up with is like, can we meet somewhere not in the middle, but near? Okay. And we just say, you want to be effective. You know that you need to have this digital memory for stuff that's really important. Let's do it on something super simple like Apple Notes or Google Keep or something like that. Just low level, easy, fast. And the rule is you use at least three words to label the note. That's it. Three words to label the note. That's all I'm asking. Will you just give it three words? Because sometimes they're like travel ticket, train ticket. Yeah, Car fix, you know, it's no car fix rims, car fix wiper, you know, and then you're like, oh, I need to find that thing. It's about the wiper. So you type in wiper, and it finds it. And so I think sometimes the expectations we put on ourselves are a little bit high. And so we set ourselves a bar that we set ourselves up for failure to say, look, I can't do that. I'm never going to do that. I'm going to put off filing things away. But what I've ended up doing is as a result of that, I have one and a

    00:25:00

    Darius: half thousand notes that are just labeled like that. But then I get to this point where I'm like, I keep wanting to go back to those six or seven notes and I say to myself, do you know what? I'm going to do a file. And I file them, and I have great joy in filing them because it's really useful. I'm, no longer filing completely useless stuff and completely endless, you know, folders that go on and on forever and I get lost in. I've got a filing system where it's like, it's really minimal and I can find it because it's small enough for me to remember where stuff is. So I think it's just that kind of gradually. And I think this is quite important. I've labored this. I know, I'm sorry, but I've labored it because I think we need to have that approach with, sometimes with our young people to say, look, I don't want to overwhelm you, but let's just put in place the minimum you need to survive. Just the minimum.

    Erica: But, you know, the beautiful thing is if you can talk to them about this before they go to college and even do something as simple as create folders for a semester, fall 2025, and then a folder for each of their classes.

    Darius: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Erica: Something that simple. M. And then getting them into. All right, so it's Christmas time. All right, let's create your folders for the spring of, 2026. And then you can just. Then after that, you just say, oh, did you create your folders? Because it's a matter of just getting them into certain habits because it will save them a lot of time. I, I just, I look at my Google Docs and it's endless. But yes, I. There are a lot of Untitled. Not on purpose. I mean, it's kind of funny because if you click on the title space, it will make a title for you. It'll take the first few words, but if you forget to click there, it just does. Stays as untitled. It doesn't do that for you. I wish it would.

    Darius: It should. It should really do that for you.

    Erica: It should do that for you.

    Darius: So okay, let's just think through, let's get super practical. What are the sort of strategies that kind of need to be in place as a minimum to help you to transition?

    Erica: I think I would like to review a few tech tools.

    Darius: Yes.

    Erica: That I think are vitally helpful.

    Darius: Can I start with the first one that I think so important?

    Erica: I think I know.

    Darius: Go ahead. I don't think you do. I think it might be surprising. Your own personal adult email.

    Erica: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Darius: So many students they don't have their own personal. I, I really intentionally, I went into my children's phones when they were 16 and so I said look, you're 16, I'm going to make sure you've got your own iCloud account so that when you grow up you can be separated from my iCloud account. It'll take a year or so for us to get used to how all the passwords and so on interlace and gradually go out. I'm going to make sure you've got your own email account. Such and such mail.com, a grown-up email, not poo@penguinmail.com that you got when you did some sort of silly kind of username and now you're. All your emails are being sent to that and you're applying for jobs with this nonsense email, and you feel really bad because you've got all these emails in that email account. You don't know how to transition. So first off get them a Gmail account that has a decent adult name on it that isn't anonymized but is just an adult sort of thing that you would be proud to put onto a CV and apply for a job on number one.

    Erica: Yep. Yeah, I think those are, I think those are great.

    Darius: And next a calendar, right?

    Erica: It could be Apple Calendar; it could be Google Calendar. It's funny and on my system they kind of communicate with each other and update each other but yeah, ah, I personally just stick with, I stick with Google.

    Darius: I do too. And I think it's a mistake to go for Apple. I'm an Apple guy. I think it's a mistake to go for Apple Calendar. I think the answer is to go for a Google Calendar because it's a much more integrated system as they grow into being an adult and sharing calendars and things like that. I think if you can start when you're 16, 13, 14 years old and you Make a promise to someone and you say, I'm going to go around to them and have a sleepover. Put it in your calendar. And then, oh, I'm going to go and play sports at such and such. Instead of relying on the calendar of mom and dad, put it in your calendar. And the joy it gives to an individual when

    00:30:00

    Darius: they go to bed at night and they're feeling a bit stressed. Sometimes they open up their calendar like, oh, it's okay, it's in there or whatever, you know, because sometimes children can, when they're feeling overwhelmed at night, they can just get so spiral and have so many thoughts and so on. And that's what we as adults are trying to manage that with these tools like a note taking app, a calendar app and a reminders app. Those are three core things. If you can start your child using that before they go to university, they've got a really good fallback net.

    Erica: And I have to agree with you. I think the reason why I like Google Calendar is because it works beautifully with Google Keep and Google Docs and Gmail. They all kind of communicate with each other. So a student can be in Google Docs, and they can just click on the little icon for Google Keep and they can see what their homework assignments are, or they can click on the Google Calendar, and they can see what's coming up for the day so that they don't have to be going between tabs. They can see it all in one place. So yeah, I would have to agree with you. So setting all of those things up, getting them comfortable, creating reminders. so a lot of the seniors that I work with, I want to get them comfortable with all these tools so that they know how to use all those. But my, my new favorite tool is Shovel.

    Darius: Oh yes, that's the one that you've been talking about that.

    Erica: And what I'll do is I will, I will put Shovel in the show notes, and I will put, I, I can get everybody 20% off. So I have a special. You have to click on that particular link and use the coupon code. I think it's Dr. Erica Warren. I'll have to look it up, but I'll put it in the show notes, but it'll get you 20% off. I just love Shovel. Shovel has taken the best from a number of apps and put it all into one place. So there's so many things that are frustrating about Google Calendar for a student because you can't really put your assignments in, into Google Calendar. You kind of have to use A combination of Google Calendar and Google Keep.

    Darius: Okay, so what do you mean by you can't put the assignment in? Could you explain the practicalities of that? So what would you want to do? How would you expect.

    Erica: You can't get into the details of the assignment, necessarily. I mean, what Shovel has done is it's. And it offers a lot more little nuances. Like it allows you to integrate how long it takes you to get to class. So travel time. It allows you to establish all of your classes in one column, all of your assignments in another column, and you can drag them into the calendar.

    Darius: Okay.

    Erica: It's really simple and fast to navigate. It also will analyze whether you have enough time to get everything done.

    Darius: Right.

    Erica: so it can let you know, like, well, you've given yourself. You said it was going to take you because it also, you let it know how long it's going to take you to maybe prepare for a paper or a test. You might say, oh, I think it's going to take me about six hours. And it will let you know. Well, you said it was going to take six hours, but you've only scheduled three. So you're in the red. So it offers a lot of kind of smart background thinking. But I just love the drag and drop feature of it all because it's, it's hard to know where to put things. And then the timepiece, the timepiece is really, really, really nice. Now the other thing is, at the very beginning, you organize a semester. So normally in Google Calendar, you're constantly having to put in the start date, the end date. You don't have to do that anymore because if you have set up the semester and you put your classes in for the semester, it already knows when the beginning and the end is, and it already knows when your holidays are. So it doesn't schedule during those times. So it does a lot of the busy work for you because you have kind of worked it in. The other thing is, and they're actually integrating more and more of these programs, but there's Google Classroom and then there's Schoology and there's a whole slew of other ones they are integrating with those systems. So if a teacher changes an assignment, the date, it'll automatically change it in your calendar. And that's huge. That never happens in Google Calendar. You're always having to scoot things around and move things around. So as long as it integrates with, with it, then you don't have to do that. So, yeah, I really like it. And the guy that created it really

    00:35:00

    Erica: bright but struggled in college. And he gets it on a cellular level and then even within the platform. He offers tips and tricks and little videos on how to be more effective and more efficient and they're really well done. So you get a little bit of executive functioning coaching if you need it in the program itself. But I really like it. So I try to get my students to hop onto shovel their senior year. Although it's not as applicable to high school, it works very well with high school and knock on wood, it integrates with their school system and it's really, really nice. But I want them to be familiar with how to use it so that it becomes just fast, so that their first semester they know how to just pop in their classes lickety split, how to just throw the assignments in, dragging this, dragging that. They know how to utilize the whole interface so that it's second nature, you know. Ah, another one. Finding your way of taking notes. If you want to take notes by hand, great. You might want to use an iPad or what is that one where you can write on it? It's like a.

    Darius: Just remarkable.

    Erica: Remarkable, right? Some people love remarkable where they put all their notes in remarkable, which is like a tablet, black and white tablet, but it feels very much like paper. But a lot of people really like remarkable. But I, personally love GoodNotes. Some people like notability. But what's great about GoodNotes that I love is okay, because I do like the folders. You can create these different folders. But I love that you can take your teacher's notes because a lot of college students do receive the teacher's slides before. Before. So you can already have the slides uploaded and ready to go. So you don't have to take the notes from the slides, you just take notes on top of the slides. Yes, that can be a total game changer for people. But yeah. So this is a good place for you to talk about Ivy, because Ivy is another note taking app, but it's different. Tell us about Ivy.

    Darius: Well, Ivy we designed for visual thinkers so they could go into a lecture, listen to the lecture, and it translates the lecture into visual notes. So it records the audio, does a transcription and turns it into a mind map, a spider diagram, some a visual diagram of keywords, branches, and it's connected to the transcript and basically, it's distilling down the information so you can really focus in on the key ideas rather than get covered by. What did you say earlier? What was the blob of words? It feels like you're drowning in A sea of words, especially if you've got dyslexia or adhd. Sometimes words just take so much more time or energy or attention away from the core ideas and the focus. So that's what Ivy does. It creates useful visual notes instantly in the lecture.

    Erica: And I love how you're adding new features like being able to just click on a word to make it important or double clicking or holding so that all of those little touches are significant and do certain things with the data so it can be reorganized. Or even being able to create index cards out of that content. Yeah, keeping students so that they're not having to take the notes, but they're engaging with the content enough that they're not passive, but actively active participants in their note taking.

    Darius: Again, in terms of executive functions, sometimes you feel like you're being overwhelmed by this river of words and you're just drowning in it, you know, and it's just streaming past you and you're enjoying hearing the new information, but it's not really going anywhere. And it comes at you and goes past you. What you really need is to be able to get above it and see a map, the big picture. You know, it's going back to take notes, make maps and set reminders. You know, you've got shovel to set the reminders of all the key things that are happening. And you need some way of getting the big picture of what you're learning rather than being drowned in the details. And you need another way of taking lots of little notes like Google Keep or Google Note, Apple Notes or something like that. All those, key, crucial, bits of information, things friends have said books, friends have recommended YouTube videos, good TikToks that you've come across. Save them into your Apple notes and you can share them with friends. And as you're having a nice conversation, oh, I saw this great video. I have to show it to you. So they're scrolling through your TikTok for like three minutes,

    00:40:00

    Darius: five minutes, and people are going, oh, when are you going to find it? And not finding it, you know, you've saved it in Apple notes under Cool TikTok about surfer dude, you know, and you type in surfer dude and you, oh, this is the one. Watch that. it's amazing. Having that is such a joy. Being able to find important information, being able to see the big picture, being able to be reminded of what's important. That's really at the heart of executive functions. Working memory, inhibitory control, cognitive flexibility. Working memory is the ability, ability to capture information. Inhibitory control is the ability to focus, and cognitive flexibility is the ability to adapt. So capture, focus and adapt. And these tools are helping. Capturing, focusing and adapting. Yeah.

    Erica: And I, I think ivy is so important for those students that don't want to take notes.

    Darius: Yes.

    Erica: They want to sit there and absorb the content, yet they want to lightly interact with their notes without them distracting them. Because there are those kids with like dysgraphia.

    Darius: Yeah.

    Erica: That the act of writing takes up so much cognitive space that they can't learn in the class because they're focusing on handwriting or organizing their thoughts. And that happens a lot with those with dyslexia as well. They're just the speed of information coming in. Because of course now teachers, they don't write on a blackboard anymore.

    Darius: Yeah.

    Erica: Because when they wrote on the blackboard, I wrote in my notes and then we processed it together. But now they present all of this information. and they don't give the students time to write things down. They're writing something while the teacher is talking about something else. And it's just sensory overload. So they, they get overtaxed. And so for any of those kids or even those that just, they just don't want to write, they just want to.

    Darius: And it gets even worse sometimes because the lecturer sometimes isn't saying what's on the slide, they're saying something in addition to what's written. There might be a hundred words on the slide and then they say something else. So you're listening to what they're saying and you're reading what they're writing and then you're taking notes and you're like, this is just what is important here. And that, that is really very hard.

    Erica: Well, and it's, and it's like, you know, it gives everybody ADHD because they don't know what to focus on because there's too much coming at them at once. And, and it's a shame, and it didn't happen when I was a kid because the teachers had to write on the blackboard. But because the teachers don't have to do that anymore. They're impatient, they're processing too fast for the kids, most kids to keep up. Processing faster than the average student processes. There are a, ah, few that can keep up, but very, very few. I think that everybody's losing some content there because, just going too fast.

    Darius: Can I go off on another tangent here? Which is your rucksack. Your bag. Your book bag. Your book bag. Yes. So I think it's really important to start designing Your life. If you've got dyslexia or ADHD or you. You find being organized really hard, one of the best ways to do it is to start designing your environment round about you to fit your way of thinking. So let's take your rock set, your satchel, your bag. What do you call it in America?

    Erica: Book bag.

    Darius: Book bag. Book bag. Seriously. Okay. Book bag. All right, so let's say, I'll call it the laptop bag. Okay, you're back. You've got a rucksack; you've got your straps over your shoulders. It's maybe 25 liters in capacity, and it's a sack. There's maybe three segments to it. You put your laptop in there, maybe an iPad, you've got your headphones, you've got some books, you've got some pens, some materials, etc, you shove it all in there. If you've got dyslexia, you've probably got the biggest bag of everyone. You've probably got it so filled with stuff because you can't remember what's important for when. So you just shove everything in there. There's probably a, molding rotten banana at the bottom of it because you haven't emptied it out for three weeks and it's fallen out of your lunchbox or something like that, and you're embarrassed to go down there looking, so you just go in the top. I'm just. I'm making this up. But it's not so far off the mark.

    Erica: It's not. I've seen. I've seen a lot worse. I used to get. I used to get kids to just empty their book bags on my table. And there was one kid, he's like, you don't want me to do that. And it was shocking. It was just a pile of crumbs and dirt. And I couldn't believe

    00:45:00

    Erica: what was in that bag. But it was so great to clear it out. Yes, go on.

    Darius: So it's so important that in the year before your young one goes to university, you get them kitted out with.

    Erica: A great bag, and they get to pick the bag.

    Darius: You don't get the bag. It's really cool. And I'm going through this with my young one at the moment. She's 25, but she's like, dad, I really need a good bag. And I'm like, right, yeah, we looked at these Patagonia bags and so on, and I want something that's environmentally friendly and last many years and so on. And I'm like, but that bag doesn't have enough pockets in it for you. Okay, you need pockets. You need a place for everything, everything in its place. And she's, oh, yes, that would be great. So do you know what I found is these bag inserts. Okay, yeah, you can slide in a bag insert. It's got a little pouch for water bottles, it's got little extra little pouches for this, extra little pouches. And you can just slide it straight out, put it on your desk. You can even get, a board with lots of crisscrossing elastic bands on it. And you can slide different things in it, so nothing rattles around. You can slide that out, put it on your desk, and you find everything. You put cameras in it and it's like, oh my goodness, this is fantastic. So much joy in knowing you've got what you need and when you can get to it with one or two steps rather than rustling around everything and damaging things and things falling off and breaking and getting wet and dirty and slimed by the dirty ban. Whatever. You know, a good bag with lots of pockets in it is a godsend. And I think that's a kind of metaphor for everything. Same thing with helping set your child up in college. It's like, do you have enough coat hangers? Do you have enough storage space? Do you have a hanging rail? Do you have enough boxes to slide, put things in and slide under your bed? It's like sometimes you just need some of these practical strategic, organizational, executive decision-making things. Often you need the right tools. And that goes to the point of the right tools on your back, in your bag, in your room, the right software on your computer, whether it's notetaking software, speech to text software I mean.

    Erica: You might use and making sure that they are working so that they can share their screen, all those little nails.

    Darius: how making sure their cloud is big enough for backing up, so their phone doesn't get completely jammed up. Because if you're a visual thinker, you take 10 times as many photos as everyone else and your camera roll is filled up and then all of a sudden, your whole life screeches to a stop because your phone says storage is full. And you're like, oh, I can't operate because my storage is full, and I can't delete all these wonderful photos. And so sometimes you just need a bigger I cloud storage account, you know?

    Erica: Right. Well, and let's say, let's take the, the kid with classic executive functioning issues that may not know how to break something down into manageable chunks, then you can use Goblin Tools. I love Goblin Tools. Goblin Tools has, I think it's called Magic To Do. And in Magic to do, it will break things down, so you don't have to. So even if you were like, okay, I'm going to college. What do I need to take with me? You can put that into Goblin Tools, and they have, like, little chili peppers. If you pick five, that will break it down into minute details. If you pick three, it breaks it down a little bit less. But using AI can be great. Great for that kind of stuff and helping them if there are things that they have to do. For example, maybe they're not very good at emailing their teachers because it's hard for them to really say what they want to say in a way. So they just avoid it using AI tools just, that they can speak into, whether it's ChatGPT or Goblin Tools. And just saying like, oh, I need to send an email to my teacher. I missed class on Wednesday. I need to know what the assignment is and if there's anything I need to do. Make this sound polite and friendly. Go. And it will do that for you. Oh, I forgot to mention that, that I forgot to turn in my assignment on Monday. Can you add that to the letter?

    Darius: Go.

    Erica: And then a son. They copy paste. Done.

    Darius: Yes.

    Erica: That's the thing is, and you often say this, making hard tasks easy.

    Darius: Yes.

    Erica: And so helping them to find the tools that they need to make the hard tasks easy. Easy.

    Darius: And then we've talked a lot about the downside and the weaknesses that might lead to this sort of weaknesses in executive

    00:50:00

    Darius: functions. Not naturally organized and structured and so on. But there are actually a lot of strengths. If you're not a naturally organized person, you might find you've got a lot of strengths, say, in being very open, being very charismatic, being very social, being very adaptable or whatever, you know, you. Or fluid or going with the flow, etc. You can use that to your advantage. For example, organizing study groups, organizing social activities around. You know, I know Stan Gloss. We talk about him. He organized study groups when he was studying as a hack. It's such a common theme. People who have got. Who are often very outgoing, gregarious, social, but not so good at being organized and structured and so on. What they'll end up doing is they'll say, hey, guys, how about we all get together? I met this person; I met that person. I met that person. And there's four of us. We're going to do a little study group in the cafe. After sociology, 101 on a Tuesday, and we're just going to talk about it, and people show up, and what happens is they start teaching you. They start reminding you of, oh, this assignment's happening. That's. Oh, gosh, yes. Thanks very much. So you contribute your thing, which is, I'm really good with people and getting people together, and they contribute their thing. I'm, really organized and structured and get stuff done. and you've got this beautiful hybrid because that person who's feeling a little bit lonely and isolated doesn't feel the confidence to step forward and sort of make a study group of their own. But you could just walk into the bar on a Friday night and say to folk, hey, hey, you want to do a study group Tuesday? Oh, yeah, I'd love to go down the dorm room m. Knock on someone's door. You open the door and you, hey, Philip, you know, I know you're busy with your computer programming and all that, Jaz. And you’re gaming and so on, but do you want to do a study group on Tuesday after. Oh, yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. Yeah. 10 minutes, 15 minutes, you've got it sorted. And that can be an absolute lifesaver. And that's an example of using your strength to compensate for your challenges.

    Erica: I love that, you know, two things. Be yourself. Be your big, beautiful self.

    Darius: Yes.

    Erica: What you were just describing. And also, you are also hitting on how everybody has different ways of processing. Honoring your ways of processing is really, really important. That's something that I have an assessment called the spy. And then also the yippee. I'll put those links in there, too, that help you to figure out what are your ways of processing. And it's so vitally important because if. And it's funny you think we know and we kind of do subconsciously, but we want to consciously know. So if you consciously know that it really helps you to work in groups, then you can actively start to find that. Or if you consciously know that you're a verbal learner, you want to put yourself in positions where you're around other people that are comfortable with that, that can allow you to process out loud. Or if you're very visual, that, yes, then you can say, like, oh, wait, maybe Ivy would be great for me because I'm very visual. But it's funny how we kind of know that I might be a visual learner but find out what type of learner you are. What are your best ways of processing so that you can Start to really realize that and manifest that fully. Because I think that so many of us kind of passively sort of know that, but we didn't really realize, like, wow, I've got an 8 on visual. I'm that visual. Maybe, maybe there's some things I need to do to really take it to a whole other level. So you can always use an assessment tool like that. But another thing that we haven't talked about very much, which is very funny, because both you and I do this, is that mentors, coaches, learning specialists, there are all sorts of people out there that can help you that and that sometimes the perfect transitional opportunity from parent to independence, it's a step. So I do have a number of parents that are utilizing me and saying, hey, I need to pull back. Can you step in and offer a little bit of the scaffolding? And then maybe they'll be okay on their own.

    Darius: Yes.

    Erica: But finding the right executive functioning coach, that's a great term. A lot of people don't realize that there is such a thing. But both Darius and I are executive functioning coaches, and I know of a lot of executive function functioning coaches, or even, you know, dyslexia. Dyslexia coaches, you can find someone that has more of a specific expertise if that's important to you. They're

    00:55:00

    Erica: people that focus just on adhd. Darius and I like to do it all.

    Darius: Well, I think what tends to happen is the dyslexia coach often starts out as a reading coach, ends up being a writing coach, helps you write your essays, and then ends up being an executive function coach, because that's the next big challenge. Because actually, dyslexia is a processing difference, not a reading difficulty. It's a processing difference. And so the way you process information when it comes to learning to read, or the way you process information when it comes to learning to write an essay or when it comes to studying for an exam or learning to drive, these are all processes. And so often that's a core part of executive functions. So end up becoming an executive function coach. Says, what happened with me? So at, the core of it tends to be this overlap of executive functions.

    Erica: Yeah. And don't forget that part of executive functions is emotional regulation. We often leave that out. And a lot of kids don't realize that they can impact their emotional self if they're dysregulated. We live in a society where we just say, oh, take a nap, take a pill, go on medication, go to a therapist. But we actually have quite a lot of Control over our emotional self. It's a matter of just stepping out of the subconscious and being conscious saying, hey, I think I'm depressed now. As soon as you've said it, you're observing it. And now that you're observing it, you can do something about it. Oh well, what options do I have? Oh well, there are counselors on campus that I could go see. Maybe I need to consider what I'm eating. I really haven't been eating very well. I've been eating a garbage diet. And at any rate, I just wanted to bring that in there because there is that piece that we often forget, the emotional part. And you and I talked, about the nervous system. Emotions aren't just in your head; they're also in your body. And when you do things like deep breathing or yoga nidra or you change your diet, it can change your, emotions and how you're feeling. Exercise huge.

    Darius: I think calling home is a really helpful thing. You know, if you're feeling overwhelmed, don't feel bad about calling mom or dad and just saying, look, this is how I'm feeling and so on and talking to them. I think sometimes, and I'm speaking to the young person who's listening to this podcast right now, sometimes you think, oh, I've got to be so independent. I've got to get my stuff together and I've got to, I can't, you know, but it's okay to call a friend and just say I need to talk. And having those friends and I hope that you've got that relationship with your mom or dad or carer, the person who's brought you up or cared for you, it's so valuable. They would love to do that for you. They'd love to listen and it's quite useful. Set an alarm once a week, 6pm, call mum, you know, every week. And you just call them. And sometimes you'd be on a high, sometimes you'd be on a low. Calling home is really important. And also having friends that aren't necessarily in your immediate circle of friends that you can call that are long term friends, maybe back in town, back at home, etc. They're maybe working, they may be not at college or whatever, you know, someone who's quite stable in your life. Call a friend. Don't neglect those kind of friends. Make sure you, you nurture those kind of relationships. And in terms of the emotional regulation, I think a lot of people who are neurodiverse have got a lot more things to think about when they start becoming Independent, you know, like, let's just say you've got some accessibility assistance being given to you at college. You've got to go and meet your accessibility tutor. You've got to go to a study skills tutor. You've got to upload different software, you've got to learn different stuff, you've got to advocate for yourself. You've got to ask for extra time for a test or an exam or some sort of accommodation. All of this is extra stuff to do that's maybe been done by your parents before. Now it's all on you. And that. What does that take? You need to put it in your calendar to make sure you show up and, you know, have.

    Erica: And the hard part about it is that nobody else has to do it. No, you don't really want to. Many students don't want to be visible in that way.

    Darius: Yes.

    Erica: And so they have to hide things. I've got one of my students who I adore, and he won't take his ADHD medication out of his dorm room, even though he needs to take it with food.

    Darius: Wow. Or

    01:00:00

    Darius: sees him taking a tablet while he's at the meal table.

    Erica: Right.

    Darius: That.

    Erica: That's really important to them. So, you know, there are all sorts of little things that you have to navigate through and keep an open line of communication so that they have. If they don't and if they're not comfortable talking to you as a parent, finding someone that they are comfortable talking to so that they can have someone to meet once a week that can brainstorm strategies with them. so that they can come up with some ways. Wow. Okay. I haven't been taking my medication for the last three weeks because the system isn't working.

    Darius: Yeah.

    Erica: What should we do about this?

    Darius: How do I think some. That kind of ties back to the bag scenario and designing the bag. I think you need to intentionally design your life sometimes. Much more so for that boy, for example, he maybe needs energy bars stacked beside his, you know, tablets. So he just takes an energy bar, eats the tablet and he's eating it with food sort of thing. And he's got some sort of hack designed in right from the start. Like, I don't need to take out. Fine. We don't need to override that thing. But we need to design something into the system. So a lot of this comes down to good design thinking.

    Erica: And don't think that everybody needs the same strategy. the strategy lies within the student and it's a matter of letting them use their wisdom and asking the right questions. So that they can solve their own problems. Because if you're trying to solve the problem for them, it probably won't work because it's your strategy, it's not their strategy.

    Darius: So what we're aiming for is a minimum viable strategy. So, for example, food. You mentioned food. And it's really important.

    Erica: Yeah.

    Darius: They should be able to cook three meals on their own, at least. Okay. All right. I can cook pasta and have some Bolognese sauce. No brainer. I can do that. Okay. I can cook a chicken, or I can, whatever. For me, it was.

    Erica: That's an. That's another interesting basic. There are. We're basically saying there's some basic skills. You want to make sure that they know how to make a meal. You want to make sure they know how to take care of their vehicle. You want to make sure that they know how to take care of their bank account. You want to make sure that they have all their IDs, and they know where they are and their passwords and their computer. And that their computer is updated and has all the. And the.

    Darius: Yeah. a good bag. Yeah. And decent iCloud storage. They've maybe got mobile banking with their password properly in it, so they can access it on their mobile phone, their laptop. They've got all of these kind of practical things that take time. They take a lot of time to just build into your life. And it can take a good. I think a neurodiverse student, from the point of leaving home to getting some competency with all of these things can take four to five years.

    Erica: I mean, in a way, that's the good thing about college, because there's certain things that college does for you.

    Darius: Yes.

    Erica: Particularly when you live on campus.

    Darius: Yes.

    Erica: Right. Because they handle the handle of food. There are a few colleges that do the. The cleaning and the laundry, but not many. But the nice thing about. And that's one of the great things about college is that they're most of your basic. The. The core basic needs are met. The food and the lodging are taken care of for you. Because that's. Once you do get to the point where you start to live off campus, it's, complicated because not only do you need food and home, but all the stuff for your home, and then you need a vehicle, and then you have to take care of the vehicle, and it gets complicated.

    Darius: And you got to pay bills, you've got to split the electricity, you've got.

    Erica: To split, it's a lot.

    Darius: and then you've got to negotiate all the Relationships that go on, the boyfriend, girlfriends, you know, and it's just so much all happens at once. So if you've got this core foundational net of these executive functions, it can catch a lot of falling balls before they smash to the ground.

    Erica: And I think also the nice thing is if your child is going to college, definitely the first two years, I would say, live on campus. Don't give them too much to take on. I think most kids do that. I know I lived on campus the first two years, and then I was ready my junior year. I was ready for. To have more independence. But it must be tough for the kids that don't go to college.

    Darius: Well, I mean, for the kids that don't go to college,

    01:05:00

    Darius: it's a slightly different. It's a whole

    other podcast because you're maybe going into a more structured workspace. You've got a bit more routine. You've. Sometimes the workplace is a bit more like school because you're being told what to do, where to go. There's standard operating procedures, whereas often in college, they're just trying to write. Yeah, go to your lectures. If you turn up, great. If you don't, you know, it's on you. Or. And not every hour of every day is set in a schedule. So you. It's just so much more flexible.

    Erica: And everybody has a different schedule.

    Darius: That's right. Yeah. And in a way, you're doing things independently from everyone else, whereas in a workplace, you're like, you're in a team. There's expectations. So there's a lot to be said for going into the workplace before you go into college.

    Erica: And there's a lot to be said about going into college before you go into the workplace. And then, of course, they have these transitional schools. It's like, an extra year to prepare you for college, which I think is really cool. I mean, that's what I think your senior year should be. Anyway. We're just not doing enough. Enough of that. You know, I just hear kids like, oh, it's senior year. It's like lax. It's second semester, senior year. We. We don't really do anything. Nobody really cares. Like, oh, my God, that could be such a great time to prepare kids for college and for being independent adults, teaching them how to manage money. I mean, just really important things.

    Darius: Well, I think going back to the traveling example, going on a trip.

    Erica: Yeah, I love that.

    Darius: Going on trips, saying, right, go on a day trip, go. Or even weekend.

    Erica: These summer programs where you go away with a group of no, 30 kids to Europe.

    Darius: No, I'm not into that. I'm not into that. No. That's not building independence.

    Erica: Yes, well, it depends on what program you go into.

    Darius: Yeah, I suppose. Okay. But what I highly recommend is go traveling.

    Erica: Traveling always makes people grow up so fast.

    Darius: Traveling. You'll grow up when you go traveling. Go traveling for a month in the summer holidays. Take responsibility for your schedule, take responsibility for your accommodation, paying for things. Travel coordination, what you're doing. Your executive functions will go through the roof. You'll make sure you have a decent bag with all the right things in it. You make sure you don't lose your passport for the second time.

    Erica: And if you do, you'll figure it out.

    Darius: You'll figure it out. You'll pay the price. It'll be painful. You'll learn your lesson. Because I remember when I went traveling for the first time, I started to lose things all the time. It was horrible. And when you lose something in Paris and then you're in Barcelona the next day because you got the train there, you're like, it's lost. I can't go back. And so I realized, Darius, every time you stand up, up out of a seat, you have to turn around, you have to look at the seat. My ADHD was like, pick up the bags, go. You know, and I've left my wallet or my watch or my pen knife or something important, you know, my ticket. And It's a nightmare. No, you stop, you turn around, you look. That's it.

    Erica: Right. It's giving them the real-life experience to, to mess up. But in a situation where it's not going to necessarily affect the rest of your life.

    Darius: Yeah, it's a long.

    Erica: Kids that go to college and fail out. That's high stakes.

    Darius: That's high stakes. Yeah, yeah.

    Erica: There's no reason, there's no reason for that to happen.

    Darius: Absolutely. And so these opportunities to maybe do these micro experiences.

    Erica: Micro experiences. I like that.

    Darius: A micro executive function challenge. You know, like when I was 17 years old, I said to my mum, I want to hitchhike to Istanbul. And she said, there's, there's no way you're going to hitchhike to Istanbul. You can't even go out the front door without getting lost. And I'm like, she says, if you pay, if you go and work and you earn the money that it would take to hitchhike to Istanbul, and you plan it all out and you come to me with all of that in two months’ time and you're still wanting to do It. Anyway, I did all of that. I worked; I got it. I. I turned up, there's the 800 pounds, which is the equivalent of like about 2,000, $3,000 right now. I'm ready. And she was like, what? And I said, you said. And she was like, okay, but you're going to have to do some practice hitchhiking. So she got her husband to drop me off 150 miles, 200 miles in the Highlands of Scotland at 6am in the morning. And she said, if you can get home on your own by hitchhiking, then I'll say yes. All right, Mom, I'll do it. So he drove me to the middle of Scotland, dropped me on a side road, no cars, and there were thousands of midges biting me, these

    01:10:00

    Darius: mosquitoes biting me. I still remember it because there's so many mosquito midges, micro midges in Scotland that bite you in the mornings. And when the sun rises, they disappear. I was being bitten like mad. And then I walked to the A road and the slipway to the A road. I'd read a book on hitchhiking and how to hitchhike and find your right spot and things like that. Stuck out my thumb and waited and waited. And all these cars went by and people shaking their heads and scowling and looking at you like you're some weird piece of person. And then that, ah, first moment where that person goes, pulls in. And yet you knock on the door, and they open the door, and they ask where you're going. And I learned my lesson. You never tell someone where you're going. When you're hitchhiking, you always say, where are you going? And they go, oh, I'm going to Campbelltown. And you. And if you don't like the look of them, you go, oh, I'm not going that way. You just say no. And they go, they have to go away anyway. I like the look of this guy. I said, yeah, sure, I'll hopped in. And he gave me a lift. And then I hitchhiked. And then the end of the day, I got home, I said, hi, Mom, I'm ready for Istanbul. now, I'm not recommending. That's what you do with your kid, drop them in the middle of nowhere. But the metaphor is there.

    Erica: Well, yeah, it's not safe to hitchhike anymore, unfortunately.

    Darius: Yeah, I still do it. I still do it. I hitchhike down to England and so on. If I go to a conference sometimes, I just hitchhike for the fun of it. Yeah, I still do it.

    Erica: I actually Went to a school, the Putney School in Vermont. And I, was there my junior year, and they allowed us to hitchhike. I mean, talk about a different world. The student school allowed students to hitchhike down to the town, up from the town, and we used to hitchhike because it was allowed.

    Darius: Certain areas have a culture and a safety and so on. And a lot of people that do give you lifts are the people who have hitchhiked and know how risky it is, so they pull over when you look for the right people. If there's two men in the car, I never get a lift off. Then I can't fight against two men in the car. anyway, there's loads of stories I've had and often there was one woman I met when I was, on my way to Istanbul. She was a hitchhiker. And I was amazed, and I said, so, what's your strategy? How do you stay safe? I never take a lift from a man. I just always take lifts from families. So she hitchhikes and if a man stops, she says, where are you going? They say, where are you going? And she says, no, where are you going? And they say, oh, I'm going to Campbelltown. I'm, not going that way, thanks very much. And she waits for the family to stop, and she just gets in the family. So there's all sorts of strategies. And I suppose the moral of this story is you need to learn how to get stuff done safely. Okay? And part of this is about safely. You know, how to eat safely, how to do your technology safely, how to do your banking safely, how to take care of yourself, how to take care of yourself. You know, you need to have these micro experiences of being dropped off in the middle of nowhere in some sort of way for you. You know, like, it's like, right, what's your challenge? Okay, why don't you work out how to take public transport to go all the way to your friend's house and back. They might be 17 years old or 16 years old, and you don't give them a lift. And you're like, find your own way this time. And they're like, yeah, great, I'll give you the money. And then you say, have you got a note of your times? Have you got it in the calendar? Have you got their phone number? Have you got my phone number? And all these kind of key things. Oh, yeah, yeah, I better get their phone number. I better get their address. Because I'm used to mum just driving me there and I don't actually know their home address. And all of these little things is just constantly, just pushing them towards that level of independence.

    Erica: And I can. My parents did not drop me off in the middle of nowhere. But what they did, I can remember when I said, I think I need a car, my dad's like, great, give us a proposal.

    Darius: Yeah.

    Erica: And in that proposal, you need to have what insurance company you're going to use, how you. How you intend to pay us back, all the little details, how you're going to take care of the car. So, okay, yeah, just give us a proposal. I loved that. I love that. And I don't see that enough these days.

    Darius: Yeah.

    Erica: It says you. Too many kids just getting a car.

    Darius: Yeah.

    Erica: And that executive functioning preparation piece is vitally important to helping them, move towards independence.

    Darius: There's a bit of a theme that's just emerged in my mind. It's like, you've got to earn the car not with money, but with executive functions.

    Erica: Yeah. Show me that you're responsible.

    Darius: Yeah. Show me that you're ready to do that and you'll get it. Show me that you're ready to get a mobile phone and I'll give you the mobile phone. But there'll be a transition period. Show me that you're ready for a bank account and I'll give you one and I'll give you the money and that you're being responsible with it. Brilliant. Show

    01:15:00

    Darius: me, etc. And there's a hunger and it's that learning opportunity and sort of harnessing that, because in every young person there's a huge driving desire to become an adult. And it's, it's often underestimated. And you can harness that as a parent and say, look, when you become an adult, you're going to need to learn these kind of skills. So can I show you how to use a calendar? Can I show you how to use reminders? Can I show you how to use this bit of software? Or can I show you how to do your day bag with survival skills? And, you know, you go out and you get some really clever gizmos and clever stuff in it. I call it my magic bag of bits. And they get their own magic bag of bits. And there's all sorts of clever things in there to help them in unusual circumstances. Whether it's dental floss to tie things up or a little set of matches or whatever, needle and thread and so on. You know, there's that kind of sense of adventure and being prepared for that adventure of adulthood and life. Life.

    Erica: you Said two things, and I think this is going to be the perfect way to wrap this up, which is, can I show you? And then can you show me?

    Darius: Yeah, And I like the way you said it there, because can I show you as a parent is asking for buy in, right? It's not like I'm going to show you. It's kind of like, can I show you how we do this as adults? And they're like, yeah, okay, dad, I'm, I'm up for that. Or they might know. I don't want to hear it, dad, you know, but there will come a time when they say, yeah, show me. I did that with my daughter, who was crashing and burning with her exams. Okay? I said, look, can I show you how to mind map? It really helped me with my dyslexia and my study skills. She's like, no, no, Dad, I know how to mind map. And I'm. I'll manage my studying, and I'll manage my revision. And I was like, you know, once a month I would say, can I show you? And she was like, no, dad, just leave it alone. And then she crashed and burned. She got her failure in her prelims or preparatory exams. And then she's got that piece of paper and she's kind of crying and I'm like, I'm really sorry to hear that. You know, if there's anything I can do to help with you, I'm always here for your love, you know. And she's like, dad, could you show me how you do that mind mapping thing? I'm like, sure, let's do it. We'll sit down and we'll do that, you know, so it's kind of like asking for that permission and waiting for that moment of readiness.

    Erica: But then, of course, on the other side is just a flip it. Can you show me? Because we never truly know something until we teach it. When we teach it, there's a certain depth of learning and processing that happens that takes it to a whole new level. I guess it brings in that metacognition, right?

    Darius: Yeah, absolutely. And often, even if you've taught that child that technique of changing the tire on your car, you're like, could you show me how you do it? And they're like, yeah, I'm going to show you how I change the car, Dad. I change the tire differently than you. And sometimes they come up with better ways, you know, a bit more efficient. They do it in this order or that order, or jacket in a different location or they've been googling it or you tubing it and found this better way, etc. It's amazing what they can teach you back, which is fantastic. And if you've got that humility as a parent to say, look, I know I'm going to start this fire off, start the fire and then you're going to keep the fire going and then you're going to show me and you're going to help me. It's a lovely part of parenting.

    Erica: And to be humble enough to be able to say that's clever instead of that's not what I taught you to do.

    Darius: Yeah, yeah.

    Erica: Whether, whether it works or it doesn't work, just being humble enough to say that was very clever.

    Darius: Yeah, yeah.

    Erica: I, I love the way you made it your own.

    Darius: Yeah. And also, I don't do that all the time. My daughter might show me something and I go, yeah, it's not the way I would do it, you know, and, and so she knows that I'm being honest. It's like, great, that's your way. That's my way. It's not the way I would do it. And then she does something, and I go, go, gosh, that's genius. I really like that. That's really good. I'm going to use that, you know?

    Erica: Well, and there's always the opportunity for them to say, oh, how would you do it? Yes, but let them ask.

    Darius: Yeah. And that's part of this whole adulting where you start, you know, learning from one another and it's not a one-way executive function thing. I'm going to tell you how to do this or I'm going to tell you when we're going to do this.

    Erica: Right.

    Darius: So in a way, as a parent, you've also got to learn another set of executive function skills. A slightly different mode where you're still kind of in charge but you're letting go. And it's harder but it, that transition of letting it slip over into theirs is, is really quite challenge as a parent. Anyway, that was a really great session.

    Erica: Yeah, I

    01:20:00

    Erica: really enjoyed that. It was a nice long one. So, yeah, we kind of fell upon this and said, oh, this, this feels like the right one. And I'm glad we did.

    Darius: Take it one thing at a time. Okay. We've dumped a whole ton of things on you and you're thinking, thank God, I should be doing all of this stuff. And it's like, yes, eventually right now, just think of one thing that we've said, just one thing. Oh yeah, I need to get that calendar sorted. I really want everything, all my promises in that calendar. Or it would be really great to have a good bag and it's coming up to Christmas. Maybe I'll buy one and put it on my list or whatever. Just pick one thing and make that a, delightful project that you can work on that's manageable. And then you'll think about the next one thing and the next one thing and gradually you'll build this infrastructure of support for yourself.

    Erica: Sounds good. Thanks so much, Darius.

    Darius: Till next time. Sponsored by Ivy. Imagine turning your meeting's audio into a live mind map instantly so you remember what matters. It's ideal for students and managers with dyslexia or ADHD. Try Ivy for free now at Ivy App. That's IVVI App.

    Erica: Sponsored by learningspecialistscourses.com courses and resources that support educators and coaches.

    Darius: Thank you for joining us at, the Executive Function Brain Trainer Podcast.

    Erica: Check out our show notes for links and resources and follow us on social media.

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