Erica: Welcome to the Executive Function Brain trainer podcast. I'm Dr. Erica Warren.

Darius: And I'm Darius Namdaran. And we're your hosts, sponsored by ivvi. Imagine turning your meeting's audio into a live mind map instantly so you remember what matters. Well, try ivvi for free now at ivvi App. that's ivvi.

Erica: Sponsored by GoodsensoryLearning.com Engaging remedial materials that bring delight to learning.

Darius: Hey, Erica, nice to see you. How are you doing?

Erica: I'm good. How are you?

Darius: Doing great. Doing great. I'm looking forward to talking to you about executive function and, movement.

Erica: Yes. How fun is this going to be?

Darius: Well, this. We started talking about this and then we decided we've got to hit record because this is really interesting conversation. So I want to just start this off with. Often, we think of executive function in terms of productivity, the workplace, et cetera, and also often sort of mental activities. But actually, there's an aspect of executive function that affects movement, and a key aspect of that is automaticity. And I think often we've talked about the value of automaticity within executive functions. And basically automaticity is all about finding a set sequence of things that you have to do intentionally, and then you encode it. So it becomes automatic, and it becomes like a habit. And it doesn't occupy too much of your mental headspace, and it gives more mental headspace for higher value stuff. So the goal of your brain is to start taking systems, valuable systems, discovering what they are, and then making them automatic and then reserving head space for stuff that involves judgments, decision making, etc. That you don't want to have on automatic. And this whole area affects the area of movement.

Erica: Yeah, it's very interesting. And as you were talking, all things, all sorts of things were popping up in my head because really what we want to be able to do is we want to be able to multitask. Because if nothing is built to automaticity, then we wouldn't be able to do very much at all, would we?

Darius: Yeah. It's interesting when you say multitask because you don't like the word multitask in many ways. I don't what you're really talking about, because often people multitasking are thinking, oh, I'm thinking and doing multiple things and being intentional about multiple things at once. But what you're actually talking about is this kind of layering and unconscious layering of it.

Erica: Right. So maybe we shouldn't call it multitasking. I mean, ultimately it is. You can multitask very well and efficiently as long as all but one is built to automaticity.

Darius: That's right. And it's kind of like driving. If we take the driving example, you know, as a new driver, you're thinking about the road rules, you're thinking about the car, you're thinking about steering, you're thinking about road position, you're thinking about the stick shift. There's so many things you're thinking about simultaneously that you're not really a very good driver on the road yet. But then once you're an experienced driver, there's only one thing you're thinking about is the road in front of you and stopping any accidents. Really defensive driving, anticipating what's going to happen. Everything else is on automatic.

Erica: And funnily enough, unfortunately, a lot of people even put driving on automatic and then they're on their phones and having conversations. And it's amazing when things become automatic, how many things we can do simultaneously. So I think maybe we could just talk about it as doing things simultaneously.

Darius: Yes. Simultaneous activity or a simultaneous process. I mean, really, this is all about. Because a lot of complex things involve multiple processes happening at once. And we need to create those multiple processes to make them automatic. And we've talked about this in the past in terms of studying your ability to read and decode and your ability to write. All of these things just need to be automatic. Shouldn't need to be thinking about how you're writing your letters or spelling a word or whatever. You're just writing it and you're thinking about the topic in hand.

Erica: That's right. So it's developing something till it becomes an automatic skill.

Darius: Yes, yes.

Erica: But you're right, the writing. There are lots of little skills that we have to learn to automaticity to be a good writer for to be a great reader, there are lots of skills you have to develop to automaticity. You have to be able to decode, you have to be able to comprehend, you have to be

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Erica: able to visualize. Visualize. And you can do those simultaneously and be a great reader. But it takes just like juggling. It takes a while to practice until you can juggle lots of balls. It takes a while to practice until you can juggle lots of activities simultaneously. Right. But they have to be built to a degree of automaticity. And that's, I think, a lot of individuals that have learning disabilities. One of the problems is they are not building those skills to automaticity as quickly as others. So that's getting in the way of them learning at the pace that everybody else is learning at.

Darius: Absolutely. And I think that's got to be the focus of our podcast today, is automaticity and movement.

Erica: Well, okay, well, but it's interesting because I suppose in order to, you're saying that what brings movement and executive functioning together is automaticity.

Darius: It is. And I think often in all of these discussions about executive functions is that automaticity becomes the Cinderella of all of this. Completely overlooked. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's in the corner. We need to have habits and so on. We maybe think about, oh, processing difficulties or your way of working or working memory inhibitory control, cognitive flexibility like we always talk about, you know, and they're really valid. But then I kind of think of automaticity as this Cinderella function that is really important but so overlooked. And it really comes home to me, for example, with like dancing. Okay, so I just went to an exercise class, and we were talking about this beforehand, but let me just bring the listeners up to speed. You know, I decided I wanted to get fit and I'm not very good at doing it on my own. So I thought, right, I'll go to a class. And what kind of class would I like to. I'll go to? I like dancing. You know, I actually like dancing, but I'm not very good at it at the moment. So I'll go to a dance class. What adult dance classes are there? And there was this clubber sized dance class where you play club music. They switch the lights off and they give you these glow sticks in your hands so you can see what you're doing. You don't get seen by anyone else. You can't see anyone else really, because everyone's just a shadow in the darkness. It's like being in a club. They play club music, and you do these dances, okay? It's great fun. You sweat a lot; you exercise a lot. there's a lot of lunges. It's really hard on the calves anyway, so I, I just realized, oh my goodness. I came face to face with my difficulty with automaticity, okay. And what I noticed is that I'm actually quite good at moving. I've done karate, I've done, you know, different dancing processes and systems and so on. I like moving. I'm actually pretty good at it. I've done sports and so on. I've got a good sense of coordination, etc. But when it comes to learning a sequence, okay, I take a lot longer to learn a sequence than typical people. And so what happens is it looks like I'm not good at it because I haven't become automatic at a base sequence. So there could be a base dancing sequence, a stepping sequence, and there's certain stepping sequence where I'm told to go left, left, right, right with my feet. But then your arms are doing something that's completely contrary. And it's like playing the piano with two hands. It's a blooming nightmare with dyslexia, and, you know, automaticity. It's like. And actually what you need to do is just learn how to play really well with one hand and then learn how to play really well with the other hand and then learn how to put them together. Often if you're in a group, the instructor is kind of like, well, they're going to get bored after 10 or 15 repetitions of this. And that's normally okay enough for people to do it, but I actually need about 50 repetitions.

Erica: They need to repeat the same song three times.

Darius: Absolutely. And sometimes they need to repeat, like, the first. You know how there's a, In any kind of physical exercise or physical movement, there's normally a core sequence of tasks. You know, you can break it down into a core sequence. Whether it's writing or whether it's playing a sport or dancing, there's often a core base sequence. And you add these sequences together and you create this kind of symphony of movement. But there's core sequences. Do you know what I mean?

Erica: I do know what you mean.

Darius: And we see this happen with children when they're learning to read, when they're learning

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Darius: to write or whatever. They're learning. One of the things that I teach, when I'm teaching adults and children is, this phrase. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. And the moment they get it, they go, oh, my goodness, this is so helpful. And I say to them, look, you've got to slow down. You've got to slow down to the point where you're smooth at that sequence. And it doesn't matter how slow it is. Your goal is not to get it done fast. Your goal is to get it done smoothly.

Erica: So they need to slow down the music. That would be helpful, right?

Darius: Absolutely. Or slow down the sequence. I mean, I noticed in this dance when she was teaching, there's like 10 different dances, and each one's got its own set piece that you pick up as you go along. Some of them are done really well where what they do is they. They do the same movement, but over two beats. Okay? And so basically, the movement is half as slow as the final movement is going to be. So they slow it down by half. And they give you time to figure out the step in the movement. And you're like, right, I'm getting it. And if they allow you to do it maybe 30 or 40 times in sequence, which isn't that long when it's a reasonably rapid repetitive movement, but if they reduce it down to, say, 10 or 15, that's not enough for me to become smooth, for them to then increase m. The speed to double, to be fast.

Erica: Yeah, I have done a number of these. I. Wow. Oh, we're talking a long time ago, 30 years ago, I used to do jazzercise. I don't think they still exist, but it was great fun. You know, every month they would come out with a new sequence of songs with. With the newest, hottest songs that were out there. And I can always remember at the beginning of the month, I was like, oh, boy. Remembering a sequence is also, for some reason, difficult for me. Although I remember the Hustle and I remember the Continental from when I was a kid. I feel like it was easier when I was a kid, but maybe it's because I had more time for the. More repetition.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: perhaps that was. That was the case. But. But yeah. And even recently, about a year ago, I found on YouTube, I found a few influencers that were doing dancing to music. And. And it is great fun. It is great fun, but it's. It is a challenge. What I love about it is sometimes, particularly if it's a video, you can do it as many times as you like.

Darius: Well, that's the amazing thing, because with a video, you can slow it down, you can pause, you can look at the sequence, you can repeat. And that's one of the advantages. I actually asked, have you got a video I can take home? And I can just study this and slow it down for myself. That's often one of the accommodations for people with dyslexia or ADHD or executive function challenges, etc., is to have some sort of resource you can take home and slow it down to your own pace and reflect on it, but they don't because of copyright issues.

Erica: Andy, you don't have to worry about whether you have a learning disability or not. We all have things that we're good and we're not good at. And, you don't hear of people saying like, oh, I have a dancing disability, but plenty of people that can't dance, you know, and it's just an issue of coordination and. And speed, as you say. But it Is it's fun when you stick with it and then you eventually get it. It's pretty satisfying. I mean, there were a few of the ones that I did a year ago. I should probably get back into it. I never quite got them. I was always just a little bit behind. But when you do, you're like, oh, it really helps with your speed of processing.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: You just feel more alive. What I love about it is it's executive functioning in your body.

Darius: It is, yes.

Erica: You're getting out of your brain and into your body. That's really important. We don't embody our bodies enough.

Darius: And in a way, executive function in your body. That's a really interesting concept. I'm going to, let’s just carry that theme on and weave it in with sport. Okay. I've got a theory to run by you. Okay. That I've been pondering on for the last seven years. And the theory is that there's a lot of children, I've noticed, grow up, especially with dyslexia, adhd, who are really good at sport. Okay. They seem to have a natural ability to adapt, and their sort of adaptive minds are very good at making them adaptive in sport. Okay.

Erica: Well, it kind of makes sense. And if you think about. If they have adhd, they're not necessarily overly focused so that they're kind of able to be more creative in their bodies. You know, they don't get

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Erica: stuck in a sequence. And in sports, there isn't necessarily a sequence. There's.

Darius: Right.

Erica: you have to be aware of your whole environment. You have to have an open aperture. You don't want to be overly focused because then you're not seeing the whole field.

Darius: That's right.

Erica: So it's kind of interesting. I mean, which goes to just really show you that what might be a disability in the classroom could be a strength in the play field.

Darius: Yes. And if you look at the pattern that is often the case. They shine in the sports field because they've got this 360. Now, that's not the insight. Okay. That is an insight. But the insight that I want to share with you is that they often hit a critical wall in their sporting life round about age 12, 13. Okay. And because sport up until that stage often allows for much more dynamic, responsive, etc. Just, you know, just get to the goal, which is the target. You know, achieve the goal. You know, then you introduce set plays. Okay. The coach starts saying, right, okay. American football or hockey. I used to play hockey a lot. You'd have a corner, and you go, right. Instead of just a random corner, we hit it somewhere and we make the most of it. We're going to have a set play. This person's going to move there. You're going to do this; you're going to do that. We're going to have names for set plays. I'm going to say a particular name or that the captain's going to say a particular name and you're going to play the set play and so on. And the person goes out there who, who is like a star player, you know, and they completely mess up the set play over and over and over again. And the coach goes up to them and goes, a number, a few things. They go, you're being lazy, you're being selfish, or you're being careless. Okay. And do you hear the echo of what happens? This often happens in the classroom. It's like the person goes, now they.

Erica: Feel like they're back in the classroom again.

Darius: Yeah, being shame. I was really trying. And they're like, but if you were really trying, you'd have followed the instructions, which is to hop over the ball, allow it to go underneath you, to the person to the right of you. They'd have got it, they'd have passed it back to you, and you'd have gone for a goal. We've done this 10 times already and.

Erica: You’re taking the creativity out of it. They can't.

Darius: No, they forget the sequence.

Erica: Well, that too.

Darius: They forget the sequence.

Erica: But they always do best when there aren't limits.

Darius: Well, no, they're willing to do the limit, but what often happens is they completely forget the sequence and they're always trying to do catch up on the sequence. They're like, oh, God, they called out this play. Is it this one or is it that one? It sounded a bit like that one. Is it? I can't remember that. You know, we've practiced this 15 times, but actually you need to practice it 60 times to become really good at that sequence. But they've not done that one because they're like 10 different sequences.

Erica: It's building it to automaticity.

Darius: Exactly. And so what it looks like to the coach is that that person is being a renegade who just wants to go and do it their own way all the time and being selfish. But the person is actually going, I'm really trying. But in the middle of the moment, I forgot the sequence. So I did my best and I went for goal. And I got the goal. I'm really sorry, but I got the goal. And. And they are really good. And so there's this strange dynamic.

Erica: They're ad libbing because they don't have it to automate.

Darius: That's it. Yeah. And so I think there's a lot of people who are neurodivergent, who, their neurodivergence makes them very good at being adaptive in sport. But when this sort of more professional or structured approach to sport comes in, play involves a sequence, they start to hit this brick wall, and they start getting misunderstood in terms of not being a team player. Whereas actually they're not very good with automaticity.

Erica: I think you're right. And as soon as you start to feel shamed, then you're going to quit. You're going to quit.

Darius: Yes and no. I mean, you, I mean there's a lot of them, they don't quit because they're damn good at it. And they just persist, and it becomes a bit of a tussle with the coach. The coach is like blooming hell, this is a star player. But I just can't get them to do it right. And I've, I did a podcast on this about two years ago actually with a mother who had written an article on this. I said, I think part of the solution is if you are actually a coach listening to this, any kind of teacher or tutor, and you, you, you are thinking about Philip or Mary or Jessica who is constantly doing this, whether whatever sport it is. The solution in my opinion is to get a little whiteboard out, put it down in the pitch, draw everything out in sequence so they can visually orientate

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Darius: it, people can talk through, right, you're going to do this, you're going to do this. And then actually they can take a photograph of it back in the, in the locker room, they can go home, they can look at the, and they can basically practice the pitch, the process 50 times at home in their imagination, accurately go back out into the pitch and actually do it. Because visualizing it is as, is as good as a practice, accurately is as good as a practice. And sometimes that automaticity requires you to slow things down and to visualize it repeatedly in your mind until when you get out there and you do the sequence, you achieve it. Now I'm obviously talking, from personal experience here and extrapolating it to others because I found that same difficulty in hockey. I was really good at hockey, but when it came to the set sequences, I would mess them up. And I feel really embarrassed with the team for not doing those corners well because, I'd have to adapt and often we'd get the goal or whatever, but they'd be pissed off at me because, you know, I hadn't played by the rules, you know.

Erica: Right. Well, you know, I think what I would do. I'm going to counter what you were saying that it depends on how you process. Right. I'm sure you were like, oh, I know you were going to say that, Erica. You know, they're those that need to process it visually. They need to see it; they need to visualize it. They're those that need to use their inner voice to rehearse the steps out loud to themselves. They're those that need to feel it. So they might take the drawing home and then draw it so that they feel it or even walk through it, which is more kinesthetic. Some need to break it down into a step-by-step sequence.

Darius: Absolutely. But the common denominator in all of that is give them a proper layout sequence that they can take home and do it in any one of those ways rather than just have it on the pitch, which is great. And doing it physically, because a lot of, a lot of coaches will go, remember, it's this one. It's all just verbal and it's all just going through it and really fast. But the moment you kind of draw it out for someone, they've got the blueprint of it that they can translate into their own way of processing.

Erica: Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, what's most important is assessing, because this is the thing, individuals don't always know how they process. And that's why. Well, as you know, I have the, the spy, the student processing inventory, and I also have the YPPI, which is the, your professional processing inventory, so that you can figure out what are your best ways of processing. But also, it's really important for the coach to assess their way of processing and the ones that they're not connecting with. So if they realize that, oh my goodness, all right, it helps me say I'm the coach. It helps me to process out loud. So when I explain, explain it to the students, even though I'm drawing it out, it doesn't really help me. I'm just doing it for some of the visual individuals. But when I talk it through, it really helps me to remember that, that particular play. But what if they have a student or, or a player that, that is not doing well and they give them the assessment and they discover, oh, wow, they're also verbal, that, really all they had to do is say, repeat it back to me three or four times. All Right now, everybody break into groups, and I want you to repeat it back to each other. But again, what you want to do is you want to figure out what is the sweet spot for each individual. Or some people just like to watch a demonstration. Other people have to do it with their body, so just actually being able to do it. And then others. Interesting. I was thinking about the rhythmic, melodic. If you did it to a rhythm or beat, that could be really helpful to some, which is interesting. Or. Yeah, associating the plays with, each one with a different rhythm or beat, but.

Darius: Or a song.

Erica: Or a song.

Darius: Yeah, you would say, right, this is. This play. I'm going to imagine it to this particular song that I really like. And there's imagery in it, there's words in the song, there's a rhythm in the song, there's. Oh, when they say this, this is what happens. Or Philip is always happening at that point. Yeah, absolutely. They find their way of processing and they become automatic at that way of doing it. Through their way of processing.

Erica: Right. Whatever it is, whatever their way of processing is, helps to really encode it in a way. And some people need more repetition than others. Some people, it's just as simple as. As soon as they draw it out, they've got it. Absolutely. Because that, that brings in your spatial. Well, and let's talk about for a moment why this is so helpful, particularly for memory. You know, we have. And we've talked about this in the past, but. But maybe some of the people listening to

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Erica: this podcast don't realize this, but part of executive functioning is working memory. And working memory has three main tools. It has your inner voice. So you've got an inner voice which accommodates those that need to process verbally, but it also helps auditory processors. And then we've got the Visual Spatial Sketchpad. And the Visual Spatial Sketchpad is really your capacity to visualize. And you can add color and stuff like that into your Visual Spatial Sketchpad. So that can be visual. But if you integrate into your visualization a, sequence, it can also accommodate sequential or even simultaneous processors because it allows you to see the big picture. And then we also have something called spatialization, which a lot of memory champions use, and it works very, very effectively. And spatialization, we don't talk about it very much, but it's being able to kind of remember the movements in space or even attaching a sequence to a path that you walk every day, or often enough that you have that sequence remembered, and then you associate the two sequences together. But it's about utilizing the tools that we have in our mind to help us to encode information. So we have different ways of processing, we have senses. Right. And we have information processing. We even have kind of Howard Gardner's multiple intelligences, which I kind of pulled from all of those for the SPY and the yippee that I created those two assessments. But, but it's kind of fascinating about how it's so impossible to imagine what it's like for someone else to process because the way we relate to people is we look at how we do things. But ultimately if you really want to help others, it's a matter of stepping out of your comfort zone and being open to the idea to being cognitively flexible enough. Right. To use another key executive functioning term to realize that, that everybody really processes differently. And it's fascinating when you start to see how different people process is just remarkable that they're able to work as effectively as they, they do as a team. But also understand that when the team isn't working it means that perhaps everybody's processing very differently. And you've got to find almost like a common language. But you're right. But what really works is developing skills to automaticity. That's where we can shine. That's where our executive functions shine. When kids don't do well in school, I would say that it's almost always that they haven't developed the needed skills to automaticity.

Darius: Yeah. So you've got this scenario where on the sports field you've got someone who's really good at particular sport, all of a sudden, they start not performing well or their coach isn't so happy with them. Maybe it's a set play that they're not following that to automaticity. You could be doing it in your workplace that someone, and I've noticed this in the workplace, for example, someone's really good at their job, great physiotherapists, really good with their clients, etc. And then a new piece of software is introduced, and everything starts going pear shaped because they just don't get it. You know, other people have been using it for a few weeks, and they've tried it 10 times and they've got automatic at it. And, and people are like, well we, we've had this going for the last two, three months. You should have it by now. Six months later they're like, it's like day one again for them. And that's the issue. If you keep going back to it feeling like you're completely day one at this dance or the sequence set play or software or whatever, what's happening there? It's a combination. It's basically you've not become automatic at it. Now what. What leads to not becoming automatic is a combination of what you've said and what we've said. Let me just break it down in my, my thoughts. The end goal is to become automatic at it. To become automatic. Let's rewind. You need automaticity. To. To develop automaticity, you need to go slow as smooth, smooth as fast. So you need to do it slowly enough so you're smooth at it. And then you build that up from smoothness to fast. That's when you get to automaticity. So how do you go from slow is smooth. Now that's normally a processing thing. Okay. To go through something slowly enough for you to become smooth at it. Smooth is basically an expression of becoming smooth at a process. And so you need to find a way of becoming

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Darius: smooth at a process. And that could be visualizing it and, repeating everything that you've just said, all of those different processing approaches, song or whatever. And so you've got to go through that sequence slowest smooth, smoothest fast. And that is the journey towards automaticity.

Erica: And. And then there are those people that blow your mind, and the first time they see it, they can do it. But then, you know what, what I can say is we all have those kind of genius qualities somewhere in our system.

Darius: Yeah, we do.

Erica: But yes, for the vast majority, I agree that slow is smooth and smooth is fast. The other thing is, we also have these other things that pop up into our reality that can derail us, like anxiety. So, for example, say you are the best football player, but your coach triggers enormous anxiety in you. Maybe he's using some words that an old teacher used that shamed you. it could be so many things. It's amazing how anxiety can really block automaticity, or even bad habits can block automaticity. I'll give you an example. And we've all done this. If we look at our fingers when we're typing, will never be touch typers. And many of us were told that a thousand times. And then there are those people that never stop looking at their fingers. And that was me until I was in my 40s and I finally said, okay, I'm going to stop looking at my fingers. And man, when I learned to type to automaticity, I was like, holy moly, this is magic. I don't even think about it. And my, and my fingers just go there. Is that real? Is that Possible. There's something so beautiful to learning to automaticity. But just to flip it, you have to be careful what you're learning to automaticity. Because sometimes we learn things to automaticity that don't serve us. Like looking at my fingers, looking at my hands. Right. So we have to constantly bring into consciousness what is our process, what are we doing, how do we want to become better? And what do I need to do that? What are the things that I am, not doing that maybe I have become automatic on some bad habits that are blocking me from getting to a certain degree of productivity.

Darius: Well, it reminds me of the book Bounce. He. He shares a story about how there was this British, table tennis player, and These scientists about 30 years ago, studied his reaction time. And when they studied his reaction time, he was, British champion and one of the best in the world. They realized that his reaction time was really slow. And so they thought there was something wrong with their calibration of their machines. And so they canceled the experiment. Until they redid the experiment seven years later, something like that. And he was included in it again. And they realized their machine was calibrated well. And all these other players had fast reaction times. He still had a slow reaction time, but he was one of the best players in the world.

Erica: Oh, just mean relative to the other.

Darius: Players, relative to the other plays. He was slow. Okay, interesting.

Erica: but he still hit the ball.

Darius: He still hit the ball faster than everyone else.

Erica: So how can you. You can't be slower than the ball is going, or you're going to miss it, or it's going to go in the wrong direction. But how can you be slow? There's a certain piece of his, the certain sequence part of the sequence. It was slow. But he still hit the ball, right?

Darius: That's right, yes. So they didn't understand it, but what they realized when they looked into it more carefully. Let me just break it down to you. What was happening. So person would throw the ball up in the air. They would hit the bat, and they would record when the bat got hit. The ball started to move from the bat, and they'd measure the time, the reflex time from the ball being hit to when the person hit the bat. Okay. Hit the ball back. Okay. And reacted to it. What was their reaction? Did they go to the right place, etc. What was their reaction time? Okay. So they did that as a base. And he was faster than everyone else. He got there faster. But then they did another test where they would ask him to do a reaction time on something that wasn't similar. And he would always be slower than everyone else. And what they ended up realizing was he was anticipating before the ball was hit what was going to happen. And because he had a slow reaction time, he had started through practice to train himself to anticipate what the other player would do before they even hit the ball. So he wasn't

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Darius: relying on his reaction speed, he was relying on his prediction ability to help him react before he needed to react.

Erica: Oh, I see. So he was lengthening his reaction time, which made it look like he was going slow.

Darius: It made it look like he was going fast.

Erica: Made it look like he was going fast, but in fact he was going slower.

Darius: That's right.

Erica: Because he was starting before everybody else.

Darius: That's right. So he had a physiologically slower reaction time than everyone else. But because he started to move faster than everyone else, he got there quicker because he moved earlier, just like you're saying. Because he relied on his ability to anticipate what the other person was doing. Now this ties in with our automaticity. Okay? Yeah, he relied on the automaticity of the other sports person. He started to be able to read the other sports person and predict by their movements what they would do because they were automatic at it. So he actually used their automaticity, which is an advantage against them.

Erica: Right. Because they became predictable.

Darius: They became predictable, yeah. Now this is where automaticity, you've got this double-edged sword.

Erica: And what outstanding executive functioning skills does he have to be able to analyze that in such a way that he could use it as an advantage?

Darius: Well, all of this was unconscious. He had no idea he was doing it. It just came from 10,000 hours of intentional practice with feedback and a coach. So, you know, the 10,000 hours thing, have you heard of that? So there's this sort of kind of meme or principle around the sports world that if you spend 10,000 hours on an activity, you become world class at it. Unfortunately, it's got lost in translation. The actual translation from this research was if you spend 10,000 hours of intentional practice at what you're not good at, with feedback and a coach, you will become word class. If you spend 1,000 hours, you become national class. No, 5,000 national class, 1,000 regional class, and you know, roundabout 100 to 500, pretty good. But the key thing is you have to do practice repeatedly to automaticity. Okay. Stuff that you're not good at and have a measure to feed you back about whether you hit the mark or not. Okay, I'll give you an example. Let's say you're playing badminton. Have you ever played badminton? And you know that shot where you hit, hit the badminton shuttlecock and you hit it right up in the air and you aim for the final line, and it goes up in the air and then it just drops down vertically. It's really hard to hit if you manage to make it drop down vertically. Yeah, right. But if you kind of fake it and you do an arc to, to that back line, okay. It's much easier to hit because they can predict where that arc is going. Whereas if it's a vertical drop down is really hard, okay. And it's actually very easy to trick yourself into thinking you got it because you got it, you hit it to that line and oh, I got it there. But if you say, for example, took, a basketball hoop, okay. And you positioned it about 6 foot or 8 foot high at the top left-hand corner of the opposite side and you hit the shuttlecock, and you hit it, right, it would get into the line, and it would go through the basketball hip and get in the line, okay. But then if you hit it again and you just got it inside the line, but it didn't go through the basketball hoop, you know, you didn't do it right. Do you get my drift idea? So when you do stuff like that, and really good sports people who really want to do well do stuff like that, they give themselves specific feedback on something that they find really hard to do and they repeat that, and they become automatic at it. They then start becoming world class, right? And things that you think are actually maybe a disadvantage, you might have slow reaction speed, you can overcome a lot of this. You might have, you might be shorter than someone else or physically different in some way, but this ability to measure your performance in that way makes a huge difference. So why did I share all of that? You know, automaticity, super important. But also it can also become a disadvantage if you become predictable.

Erica: Well, if you become predictable also it's a disadvantage if you are learning skills to automaticity that don't work for you. We

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Erica: all have. I mean, there are patterns that are passed down from generation to generation. Generation. You'll learn about those in therapy, you know. But yeah, they're habits. They're habits that, that our parents had that we learned. And they become these subconscious patterns that we need to address. And they're really hard. It's really hard to change them. It's really hard to even be aware of them. And that's the scary thing about learning to automaticity is once something is learned to automaticity, we're not aware of it. And I think I might have given this example once before, but I'm going to share it again, which is I had. There was something that I was doing that really bothered people, and I picked up on it energetically. And I was in college, and I asked my boyfriend at the time, I said, is there something that I do that's really annoying? And he said, yes. And I said, really? What is it? And he said, whenever you speak, you put your finger in people's faces. And my hand came shooting up and I put my finger in his face. I said, I do not.

Darius: Wow.

Erica: I looked at my finger and I was like, whoa, where did that come from? I didn't even know I did that. And all day long I had that feeling, finger cocked and ready to go in my lap every time I had a point to make. And it blew my mind. But this is the funny thing is we often don't tell people about the annoying things that they do. I wonder how many people have learned that skill to automaticity and they aren't even aware that they do it.

Darius: Oh, you know, I heard, I watched this. This is. I don't know if I should share this, but I watched this YouTube video and it was this guy, this psychologist, talking about beautiful women. And he said, there's a lot of beautiful women are never told the truth by the men around them because they don't want to spoil their chances with the beautiful woman. And so they don't actually get an accurate representation of the world round about them until life hits them in the face. Maybe they're not as beautiful anymore or whatever. And they're understanding of the world round about them is distorted by this. And, it’s an interesting concept, you know, like what sort of things might be distorting the feedback you're getting from other people. You might be really wealthy, you know, you might be really, you know, that people go, well, fine, we'll, we'll do it because we want them to like us, you know?

Erica: Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? So, yeah. So I, you know, automaticity is beautiful, but consciousness is too. So I think we want to be conscious about what we're automatic about to see if that really serves us. If it does great. If it doesn't, let it go. And the way to reprogram is to find a new process and do it many, many times. And I hear this all the time when I work with students with executive functioning problems. The Hardest students to work with are those that are motivated by the last minute. It becomes an addiction. It's so hard to pull them out of that automatic habit of, I'm not going to get it done until I'm flipping out until. And everybody in the family ends up staying up all night because they're freaking out, because they have to get it done. But they've gotten so addicted to that adrenaline rush that you get when you're panicked. And that's the only way they, quote, unquote, feel motivated and having to reestablish a new pattern. And that's the interesting thing. When things like adrenaline, and our natural chemicals within our brain get involved and we can get addicted to certain patterns. Yeah, we have to be very careful. We have to try to catch those soon. Because when anything addictive happens, it's that much harder to break a skill of automaticity. And when I say skill, it might not be a positive skill, but it is m say it's a skill in itself.

Darius: I think that's why, bringing it back to the whole movement side of things, okay? This whole conversation back to movement, to kind of close the loop. One of the beautiful things about movement is that you have to deal with non-negotiables like gravity, like the ground, like your body, like, coordinate the world around you. Like, I like sailing, okay? And one of the things I love about sailing is that I'm not in control. You know, you go out there into the sea. I sail in the North Sea. There are waves that are, you know, three meters high, two meters high. I've got a boat that is only two times as long as me. It's an open boat. It's a dinghy. And anytime we can flip over and we're upside down in ice cold water that's like 5 degrees centigrade or something like that. You can die, you know, is a simple answer to that.

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Darius: And you can die pretty quickly. Fifteen minutes, half an hour if you're stupid. And so what that means is that you have to start listening to feedback.

Erica: You have to start listening to feedback. And I'm going to. Let's drop into the body. So often we get so stuck in our heads that we're not listening to our bodies enough. And the beauty about movement is it brings executive functions into our body. And sometimes we can use our body to support our brain. When our brain gets a little bit stuck in those habitual habits.

Darius: Isn't it funny how our brain kind of needs our body to work? You know, all these research exercises about you know, like movement helps your mental function work better. You know that your brain doesn't just work in isolation. You need to get out, you need to move blood circulation, you know, all the, all this research, we could talk about all of that, but basically there is a body brain balance where both need each other. And really what we're talking about here is physically I think there's a huge advantage. Like I saw that with the dancing, for example. In the dancing it became so obvious to me how difficult I found it to learn a sequence because I'm seeing her move it like this, I'm seeing everyone else move X, Y and Z and I'm going, I'm completely out of step. I'm completely lost. And I'm finding this so hard. Thankfully I've got enough self-awareness to say I'm actually quite good at doing this. But I'm finding it really hard because I'm not practicing this sequence enough. So I don't, I'm not too hard on myself and I know what area I really need to concentrate on. So there's something really good about having physical feedback and that rapid response that the physical world gives you, the bodily world gives you.

Erica: Yeah, well, and, and also just to take it down, another beautiful path is I've switched a good piece of my workout to taking really, really long hikes and walks. And just recently I've integrated walking meditations. So I'll listen to like an hour and a half long meditation while I'm on my walks. And it's blowing my mind at what great work I can do when I'm moving and listening. It's really remarkable. I've also noticed because I do ifs internal family systems, the form of coaching or therapy. I've also noticed that when I do that particular type of support with my clients and we take a walk, it goes so much deeper. There are those that are kinesthetic learners and I tell the parents, if you're helping them to study for a test, take a walk while you go through the index cards or while you test them on the material. Because it's just integrating the body into the brain can be energizing. It can also help with memory. It's really quite remarkable. It's like you're almost living the spatialization skill, right? You're not sitting still. Some people need to sit still. It's agitating to move around when they're learning and other people really need to get up and move, around. But more than anything, movement wakens the body and what Wakens the body, wakens the brain. Because if we are now taking deeper breaths, we're putting oxygen into the blood, which is feeding the brain, so it helps with circulation. But these long walks have been so incredibly healing for my body. But this recently, integrating, listening to things, so I'm learning while I'm walking. I'm really fascinated about combining those two modalities of movement and thought. I'm, feeling a lot of shifts in my psyche and in my wellness.

Darius: Steve Jobs was famous for doing walking meetings.

Erica: Interesting.

Darius: He would have a lot of his meetings walking.

Erica: You know, I recommend it. It's really, really interesting. The other thing that's fun, when you walk with somebody, you're. You're really with them when the world is moving and they're with you at that same pace. It makes me think of being in a hot air balloon. Right.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: Would think that it'd be like, really windy and everything, but you're. It's completely quiet and it's completely still because you're in the wind.

Darius: Oh, yeah, yeah. It's like when you're sailing, you're sailing downwind, right? You're with the wind. Yeah.

Erica: It's fascinating. But it's the same thing when you're walking with somebody. Right. It's like you're in a little bubble and it creates this energetic connection that's really quite

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Erica: lovely where you're. You're literally traveling together.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: So there really is something to movement and executive functions. And I can definitely say that if you don't move at all, then it will impact your executive functions. Because there was a time where I was just working at my desk every day. I'd get up, sit at my desk and work all day, go to bed. and over time, if you don't activate the body enough, it will not only affect your body profoundly, but it does impact your brain.

Darius: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that was a really good meander around the world of executive functions and. And movement. I hope, listeners, that you enjoyed our conversation.

Erica: We hit a lot of different, different areas and. Oh, I'm going to just. I'm going to. I'm going to do this. I'm going to just activate one more thought. Another. You. You often hear this where therapists will say, you know, get a swing and swing.

Darius: Oh, really?

Erica: And I have many swings at my home and in my property. And I even have a room of swings where I do workshops. And there is something to. Even if you're not that full body movement, just the movement. Well, what do babies love they love to be rocked, right?

Darius: Yes.

Erica: And you love to be on the boat. This, when you're on the boat, you're being rocked by the boat, but there's something to just having your whole body moving, even if it's. Even if it's something as simple as a swing. So there's. We could. That's.

Darius: That.

Erica: That's a whole other discussion, which, I'm sure.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: you could totally go with. But.

Darius: Well, I think as part of my kind of ADHD traits is I have to really rock on a chair. I have to kind of rock backwards and forwards on the back legs of my chair.

Erica: Yes. A lot of people need to swing, bounce, swivel, you know, that's. That helps them. It kind of creates a rhythm that.

Darius: I'm doing it now. I'm. I'm twisting sideways right now, and I'm rocking backwards and forwards a little bit. If I'm at the dinner table, I have to. What do they. What do they say when you go back on your chair?

Erica: Yeah, a lot. A lot. A lot of us were. Got in trouble for that, right?

Darius: Oh, yeah. I got in trouble all my life for that. And.

Erica: And maybe you should have rocking chairs at your table.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: Well, I. I'm surprised they don't do that. I'm surprised they don't have chairs around a table. That. That. That rock.

Darius: That'd be really.

Erica: That would be good.

Darius: Well, I. I've. I remember as a child, all my teachers would say, Darius, when you're an adult, you can swing on your chair as much as you like, but right now you can't, because you're going to fall over. So me as an adult now, people go to me and say, oh, you're swinging your chair, Darius. You shouldn't do that. It's not good for the chair. And I said, I don't care. It's my chair. I'm an adult. I'm swinging on my chair. Or you might fall and hit your head, but I'm going to fall and hit my head. I've got my legs underneath. I practiced it. I'll catch myself, whatever.

Erica: That's right. I've learned this to automaticity.

Darius: Yeah, I can swing on my chair. I'm an expert.

Erica: I can balance.

Darius: I absolutely love swinging on my chair. And I think, yeah, movement, executive function and movement, it's a big deal. They're connected. And I think we've pretty much covered lots of different ways. And, you know, we'll probably keep up this theme in different podcast episodes in the future. As well.

Erica: Yeah, well, it was fun chatting with you about this topic.

Darius: Nice to riff until, next time.

Erica: See you until next time. Sponsored by the Executive Functioning Coaching Assessment. A quick online assessment that uncovers challenges and develops personalized strategies for success.

Darius: Sponsored by Ivy. Imagine turning your meeting's audio into a live mind map instantly so you remember what matters. It's ideal for students and managers with dyslexia or adhd. Try Ivy for free now at Ivy App. That's IVVI App. Thank you for joining us at the Executive Function Brain Trainer podcast.

Erica: Check out our show notes for links and resources and follow us on social media.

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