Episode 84: Executive Functions and The Power of No

Below you can view or listen to Episode 84 of The Personal Brain Trainer Podcast.

In this episode of 'The Executive Function Brain Trainer Podcast,' hosts Dr. Erica Warren and Darius Namdaran tackle the critical yet paradoxical topic of learning to say no in the context of executive functions. They discuss how saying no can actually help in achieving goals by enhancing working memory, inhibitory control, and cognitive flexibility. Through engaging analogies, personal stories, and practical advice, they explore the balance between saying yes and no, and how this dynamic interplay is essential for effective self-management, focus, and adaptability. Sponsored by ivvi and Good Sensory Learning, this episode offers valuable insights for anyone looking to improve their cognitive skills and executive functioning.

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#84: Executive Functions and The Power of No

Erica: Welcome to the Executive Function Brain trainer podcast. I'm Dr. Erica Warren.

Darius: And I'm Darius Namdaran. And we're your hosts, sponsored by ivvi. Imagine turning your meeting's audio into a live mind map instantly so you remember what matters. Well, try Ivy for free now at ivvi.app. That's ivvi.

Erica: Sponsored by GoodsensoryLearning.com Engaging remedial materials that bring delight to learning.

Darius: Hey, Erica, how are you doing today?

Erica: Good. How about you, Darius?

Darius: I'm doing great.

Erica: Excellent.

Darius: So, topic for today is learning to say no and executive functions. And this is a little bit of an oxymoron or sort of like contradiction in terms, because executive function is all about getting stuff done and making things happen and setting the course for your life and conducting your mind, conducting your goals, being the captain of your ship, all those sorts of things. It's about getting stuff done. But now we're talking about learning to say no. So let's explore this concept of learning to say no and how it helps with getting things done.

Erica: Yeah, I think this is going to be a very, very interesting topic because, yes, there's so much out there that says learning to say yes, but there is a balance between the two. But really going into the no and why that's important in self-care and executive functions. This is going to be a fun conversation.

Darius: Yeah, I brought this to the table because we talked about this before, you know, because there's this zoom and mute function where you have to zoom into something and sort of mute out the rest of everything else in order to focus on something and get it done, you know, and learning to say no in very simple terms is to say yes to something, you have to say no to something else. And often to say yes to something, you often have to say no to a lot of other things. And it can be quite challenging for people, especially if you're a creative thinker, a problem solver, an idea person. You've got so many opportunities. You can see all the opportunities that you just want to keep your options open. And in doing so, you actually close yourself down for getting anything done. And an example of this would be, I remember when I was traveling around Europe as a young person, I read this book that said, in order to enjoy your freedom, you must limit it. So in order to enjoy your freedom to roam around Europe, you know, France and Spain and Greece and Vienna and Germany and Denmark and the UK and all these places I could go to, you're not going to actually enjoy your freedom unless you limit It. And so you have to decide, I'm going to go to Rome and then I'm going to go to Florence and then I'm going to Vienna. But you could have gone to another 10 different places at the same time on the route and spent an hour in each hopping off one train onto another train. And all you ever see is the train stations.

Erica: In these places you get the surface, but you miss the depth.

Darius: That's right. So you think you're saying yes to everything, but you're actually saying no to everything in some way. You're not actually going deep on anything. So in order to say yes to a person, you know, have a relationship with someone, you say yes to them, and you say no to other people. I mean, it's kind of simple. But let's kind of take this principle and look at executive functions in particular, working memory, inhibitory control, and cognitive flexibility in particular, and then fit them in together into this sort of meta cognition executive function. How no is just a really helpful thing to do in the right way at the right time.

Erica: And I've got a story to share that works really well here. I remember a couple years ago I decided to go on to yes, that I would say yes to everything. And it really did it. It opened things, it helped me to reach new places, but it also created a sense of overwhelm. So it was very interesting. By going into the yes, it led me to the no.

Darius: Yeah. Do you think it's different for different. I think it's probably different for different people. I mean, some people are more default towards yes, and some people are more default towards no. And maybe it ties in with cognitive flexibility. You know, that maybe if you're a bit more fixed in your thinking and linear in your thinking and determined in your thinking, you might say, this is the path I've set. I

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Darius: don't want to do that, don't want to do this. This is the way I'm going. That's it. So you stick on your path. That's a really great ability for many people. And, but too much. No, no, no, no. This is what I'm doing. Makes you rigid and, and then too much the other side. Yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, you've got extremes on both, don't you?

Erica: Well, you know, it makes me think of, of the ocean and the waves. You know, the waves coming in is the yes. And then the, the waves pulling back is kind of the no. And, and perhaps there is some type of balance because when we go too much into the no, that can Limit us. If we go too much into the yes, that can overwhelm us and perhaps part of life. Like a breath is kind of. Or even you could think of it as like putting your foot on the gas is the yes. And then, you know, putting your foot on the brake is the no. But understanding what each of them can do for you is vital so that again, you're driving your own cognition that you are conscious. And we are going to have an episode very soon on that because I am so into that. So when we're conscious, we're able to control when the most appropriate time is to say yes and when is the most appropriate time to say no. Because when we're not conscious, we go into these subconscious patterns, and it answers for us and then we kind of get stuck and we stop growing.

Darius: Yeah, you're not really being the executive of your life at that point. You're on autopilot.

Erica: That's right. You lose executive functioning.

Darius: Yes, we need autopilot. You know, we've talked about that. You know, we need automaticity in certain things, and we need consciousness and other things, you know, like automaticity in terms of reading, writing, lower-level processing things. Lower-level functions are really helpful. Habits are really helpful to automate certain lower-level tasks so that you've got more capacity for the conscious executive function tasks.

Erica: And you could use the metaphor of camping versus hiking for that as well. So in your camping, you're saying no to moving on and you're going a little bit deeper and you're experiencing the, what you have there and you're in the campsite and you're getting to know, you're getting to know the campsite and then there's a time where you're like, okay, I'm done, I'm ready to move on.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: And then you start to hike and then you're going in, as you say you're going. Yes, yes. Going into the. Yes. Okay. Expansion. Expansion, contraction. I mean, the whole universe. You know, that's such an interesting theory about how we always thought that the universe was in constant expansion and we're discovering that there are aspects where it's contracting. So it's, I guess it's, we're getting right down to almost a yin and yang. And those dualities of, of being conscious of both of them is really important.

Darius: Interesting, that camping analogy. Let's take that for example. I like the camping and the hiking. So you, you, you're, you're on an adventure. Okay, so part of that adventure is the hiking part. And you've got your camping camp on your back, and you stop and then you set up camp, you know, so both are yeses and both are nos. Yes. Camping is yes. We're going to sit here, we're going to rest, we're going to have this beautiful view over the lake. We're going to get to know this area. We're going to have some food. This is going to be. We're saying yes to settling in this spot for a while.

Erica: You're zooming. You're zooming in.

Darius: Yes. Yes. And you're muting out the rest of the trail and so forth, right? Yes. And so you're saying no to carrying on walking, right. Someone, another part of you say, oh, we've got to keep making ground. We're behind. We've got to keep getting the miles going and so on. You're like, no, no, no. Actually, we're here to find a good spot. Let's settle down here. So there's yes and there's no. There's. Whenever you're saying yes, there's always a no. Whenever you're saying no, there's always a yes. So it's both. You know, it's like when you're saying, let's switch it and say, okay, campsite, and then you say, guys, I think it's time to stop and pack up camp and go hiking. Yes. Let's keep going on the road. You're basically saying, no, let's not stay here anymore. Do you know what I mean?

Erica: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, it gets back to that whole concept of extremes. Are actually they kind of meet?

Darius: Yes.

Erica: You know, there's a similarity between the extremes and that part of life is balancing extremes. But it is nice to zoom in to the know, which is what we're going to do today.

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Erica: Okay, so what's the value of the.

Darius: I think it might be quite nice to break it into our three kind of executive function categories of working memory, inhibitory control, cognitive flexibility. So working memory is about filtering information. Inhibitory control is about focusing. And cognitive flexibility is about adapting. So filter, focus, adapt. Okay. And I kind of think of working memory as this temporary moment where you've got a huge amount of information coming in and you have to decide what's important and what's not important and what's important in your working memory then gets moved to, either kept saved in your memory or a notebook or recorded. And what's not important just gets deleted. It doesn't go anywhere.

Erica: You know what's interesting, what came up for me when you were talking is like. Working memory is like a straw. It's like you're. You're sipping. You're sipping in a piece of reality.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: You know what I mean? And the straw limits the capacity somehow. And then. And then when you're processing it, you're tasting it. I don't. I've never thought about it that way, but it just kind of.

Darius: Interesting analogy. Interesting analogy.

Erica: It popped into my head when we were.

Darius: When.

Erica: But. But of course, you run into the problem of that. I love the idea of the episodic buffer being the stage. So you could almost think of it as like a hose. But. But. But it's not in other ways. It's. It's big. It's big. You're pulling in so much.

Darius: Well, I think what's happening with the working memory is that. I think it's really helpful for me to think of it as a filter. Okay. So, you know, with your working memory.

Erica: There’s a part of it that's a filter. Later on, it's a filter in the beginning, it's like multiple straws all bringing in information onto the stage. And then that's the place where it needs to be filtered.

Darius: That's right. So it's kind of like. Let's think of it like this. The analogy would be, let's say, a table. Okay. You get given a bunch of information very quickly, a batch of bits and bobs from life in that moment, and it gets dropped on the table. And your brain is saying, this is important. That's not important. That floater in your eye is not important. That color of the sky right now is not important. But that car on the road over there is very important because it's coming towards you and you're driving right now, and you need to pay attention to it. So your working memory is taking in information, putting it in a batch, filtering through it very quickly and deciding what's really important and then saving what's important.

Erica: I have an idea. What if it is a funnel with a filter on the bottom?

Darius: Yes, I would. I get that. Yeah, I agree. Yes. A filter. And the interesting thing about the filter at the bottom of the funnel is that if you don't clear out that filter, it's not like the water is going to keep going. It needs to be constantly emptied, you know?

Erica: Right. Or you get a bottleneck.

Darius: That's right. One of the things that happens when you watch people, when their working memory gets overloaded. So often people who are feeling very stressed get their working memory overloaded or they've got smaller working memories because it. Dyslexia or adhd or they've got some brain fog or they're just really tired. This can limit your working memory. And when that happens, there's something really intriguing, and that is the person registers that they understand what's just been said to them, but they don't remember it at all.

Erica: They don't fully process it.

Darius: Yeah. Because it's not through the filter.

Erica: They hear it, they don't process it.

Darius: Yeah. But it sort of falls off the table, you know, because the table is full. It hits on the pile of table, and it slips off.

Erica: The filter is clogged. Yeah, it's clogged.

Darius: And so the water flows down and out. And so you've, you've had that conscious. I hear what you've just said, but I don't remember it because the filter of your working memory gets clogged.

Erica: Right, right. You just, you, you lose capacity to process.

Darius: And so I think what happens with no and working memory. Okay. When you start saying to your brain, no, I'm not interested in this. Yes, I am interested in that. It's instructing your reticular activating system, that thing in your back, that back of your brain that's filtering to say, ignore that, ignore that,

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Darius: ignore that. And, and, and it starts to become blind to it. Which is literally why we're blind to the blind spot in our eyes. Our eyes have a blind spot, and it is a black spot in your eye that if you were not filling in that gap, you would see a black spot in your eye, but your brain is filling that in. So your brain is basically saying, delete that black spot and delete the floaters that are coming down your eye. Unless they're super huge and feel a bit weird and you're like, oh, there's something different here. That's et cetera. And there's all sorts of things that are being filtered out by our sight, by our mind. And that's part of this working memory process as well, is filtering out information and finding what's important and then taking what's in that filter and storing it somewhere safe. Short term memory or in a notebook or taking a photo or storing it.

Erica: Basically that would be long term memory. And also dipping into long term memory to create meaning.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: And connection and deeper, deeper learning. So. Yeah. So the no is ultimately your ability to either consciously or subconsciously. Right. Because yes, you'll get no's both consciously and subconsciously.

Darius: Absolutely, absolutely.

Erica: In fact, the, the no's of the Subconscious really limit our ability. And it's funny, it makes me think of people talk about manifesting. Manifesting is about getting rid of those subconscious no's.

Darius: Yes. And in a way, what you're doing is when you set a goal. For example, you got a vision board, or you've got a goal, something set on your sights, you're basically instructing your unconscious mind to say, this is the goal, this is the target. And then your unconscious mind is starting to filter information that is relevant towards that goal and that influences, I think, your working memory and your ability to filter information, what your brain latches onto and saves and what your brain ignores.

Erica: You know, I know that when I'm trying to instigate change in my own life, it's a matter of being conscious of my subconscious patterns and saying, no, I'm not going down that path anymore. I'm blazing a new path. But we get right back to that duality of there's always a yes and a no.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: And executive functioning is all about being able to conduct the yes and the no. And if we can, then that is really the. Creates the ability for us to be our best.

Darius: Yeah. So we've talked a bit about working memory. And I think when we start saying no to certain things, I think unconsciously it starts to filter and maybe give you our working memory a little bit more relief because it's very clear we don't want this. Delete, delete, delete. Take that off the table. Take it off the table. Oh, I found the one or two things that are important and valuable. Let's deal with that. And we're doing that all the time.

Erica: A bottleneck will never clear unless they turn off some of those or shut down some of those lanes.

Darius: Absolutely. And I think a lot of people, I mean, take a student who's studying. Okay. And you often find this with a student who's studying. They're hearing a lecturer talking and everything seems important. And they're taking notes, they're trying to write everything, and everything seems important. It's like I've got to capture absolutely everything, and it becomes like a transcript. Yeah, like a transcript. And you're trying to clear your mind of everything by writing it all down. But what happens is you're not filtering anymore. And really that is the goal of learning, is to learn how to the filter the information.

Erica: To filter, but not over filter.

Darius: That's right. And that's the balance.

Erica: Very interesting. Yeah, it is very interesting.

Darius: I kind of explain it to students like this to say, you know, language is like delivering an Amazon parcel to someone. Okay? When you're speaking a lecture to someone or being taught something, the teacher is trying to deliver a package of information. And that package that gets delivered is language, words. And what they're trying to do is safely deliver that package to you, which is one core concept. Okay, now, that package, we need the cardboard box, the Amazon delivery driver. It's got to be in a cardboard box with some padding inside, and then the little box of the thing that you need. And then inside of that box is the thing that you need with some little instruction manual. When you get that box, what you're doing is you're unpacking that box. You take the box out, you take the padding out, you get the little box of the item, you open the box with the item, you've got the instruction manual, and you've got the item. It's a

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Darius: tiny little thing in comparison to all of that padding. And it's the same with language. And in a way, that's what we're doing when we're filtering information, we're kind of unpacking to find the core idea.

Erica: And it's so important that we have the time to unpack. What's interesting, because one of the things that I notice in education is due to technology, you know, teachers, when they prep for a lecture now, they present it in a way where there's often not enough time for the students to unpack the package. They're like saying, here's a package, and then here's the next package, and here's the next package. And students like, wait a minute. I don't even have time. I haven't even looked at the first package yet. Or I'm looking, looking at the first package, and they're on the third package. And, you know, it's something that we have to be really aware of, that we have to give people the time to unpack these packages. And of course, we're talking about processing speed now. Yes, some people need more time to unpack, and some people need less time to unpack.

Darius: Well, that's why I'm a big advocate of mind mapping as a principle, because that's a different way of unpacking information as it's coming to you. So instead of taking notes down in linear format, where you're trying to capture the box inside of the box, that's kind of the notes, and you've got lots of linear notes, you unpack it into something visual, some keywords with a branch underneath as a connection with an icon on it, and you start distilling it down into core words and ideas. I kind of think it's a combination of time and tools. I've noticed a lot of students get settled into, oh, my job here is just to take packages of information, take the boxes and stack them up in my hallway, and then eventually stack them up in my garage. And in two, three months’ time, I'll come, I'll go through all of the boxes, I'll empty it all, and I'll put together this wonderful creation of all of the different elements, which is pharmacology or physiotherapy or whatever that subject is. I'll do it when I start revising for the exam. But what the, the dream is to unpack it as you're getting it. And you've got the joy of finding that little element and you can play with it in your mind, store it on a shelf somewhere, and next week, what's the next package you're going to give and how does it fit with that previous bit of information? So once you get into that mindset, that my goal is not to store all of this packaging, but to unpack it as quickly as possible to get to the core concepts, keywords and ideas so that I can really work with them. Once you've got that, you start looking for the time and the tools.

Erica: It's so interesting. So basically what we're saying is that we have to be careful not to get too far into the yes and too far away from the no. And we have to be careful not to get too far into the no and too far away from the yes. Because it's all about. I mean, I think of spaced repetition. Spaced repetition is that we're bringing in a little bit of no and a little bit of yes, all the time, so that we're not overwhelming our system at any time. Because you can overwhelm it in the beginning, or you can overwhelm at the end. But if we sprinkle to get to where you need to go, if you're putting your foot on the. On the accelerator, but also on. You know, there's certain times where you have to stop. You have to stop.

Darius: Let's go back to the packaging. Okay. What you. What I'm basically saying is the no is for no packaging. I don't want any packaging. I don't want the cardboard box when it comes in the door. I don't want the cardboard box. I'll put that in the recycling. I don't want all the padding Roundabout at the paper and so on. Put that. I want the little box. And now it's safely in my mind, safely in my house. I'll safely put it on the shelf. I don't need the box. The big cardboard box of delivery box and all of that information. So basically the no in this scenario is no packaging. I just want the stuff, the actual stuff I ordered.

Erica: That's like asking for a summary. You could. You could put an art. You can give an article to ChatGPT and say, give me the gist.

Darius: It is. And something with Ivy that I found. You know, Ivy, my app is doing that in terms of taking the recording, doing the transcript, and then pulling out the keywords and the branches. Often what I found with AI and summaries is it makes a decision on what's important. And that's a big problem.

Erica: Well, we all do. And that's the funny piece about it. And that's why I do like mind maps, because you can zoom into the details, or you can zoom out and see the big picture. So what's great about mind maps is that it enables you to capture an awful lot.

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Darius: Yeah.

Erica: And you can decide how deep you want to go into it. But you're right. I mean, we all have to be very careful about what we say no and what we say yes to.

Darius: Yeah. And in this. So let's take this example of working memory. I don't want packaging. I want the actual item. And that's what your working memory is pretty much doing all the time. What's the packaging? What's the actual item? What's the packaging? What's the actual item?

Erica: The knowledge. The knowledge versus the fluff.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: What's the heart? What's the heart of the message?

Darius: Yeah. Like, often a teacher will tell a great story to illustrate a point, but you don't need to remember the story, you just need to remember the point of the story.

Erica: Oh, that makes my heart sad because the stories are so fun.

Darius: They are fun. They're great. But the thing is, they are packaging. They are language that is trying to transmit a core concept that can often be distilled down into one key word.

Erica: You know, but, you know, it's so interesting because the stories are. Are so memorable, you know, and then that goes back into memory strategies. And what we often do, we'll create stories to make them memorable, because stories are memorable.

Darius: Well, I'll give you an example of the best of both worlds. Here is the tortoise and the hare. Okay. I could spend two, three minutes telling you the Story of the tortoise and the hare. But that's such a powerful story that when we say the tortoise and the hare, we know exactly what that is. Toy toys and hare. We know what that means. Slow and steady wins the race. The hare's arrogance about being faster and going to sleep halfway through and there's a tortoise just keeping on plodding and then getting to the finish line and winning. Tortoise and the hare. So we've been told the story. The teacher needs to tell us the story. We need to actually understand the story, experience the story, feel the story, understand the moral of the story. And then we can get rid of the packaging because we've got the tortoise and the hare as two little ornaments, as it were, in our mind. And we've got this image.

Erica: The lesson, the lesson. Boiling it down to the lesson.

Darius: Yeah. And, and so that is the essence of, in my way, in my thinking, what's often happening unconsciously with the working memory. Trying to unpackage unnecessary information and find those core concepts and then say, this is relevant. It's important to remember the story of the tortoise and the hare. Let's put that somewhere safe.

Erica: Yeah, I, I see there's a huge piece of working memory is saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: And then yes, yes. But it's very interesting because then to take that information and put it into long term memory, it's fascinating. It's fascinating.

Darius: But I make it memorable and visual and a story, etc.

Erica: But then we're, then we're going a little bit back into the yes again, so. Which is. Well, it all depends on how you word it. The bottom line is you can, yes or no, any of these things. But I do think that there's some value in just going into the know. And the know for working memory is, as you're saying, is, is filtering. Yeah, filtering, Filtering, Filtering the packaging, saying, yeah, yeah, okay, all right.

Darius: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Erica: But what's, what's the heart of it? Yeah, let's move on to inhibitory control.

Darius: Well, inhibitory control is the ability to focus.

Erica: It is, it's, it's a few other things as well. Because there is, we don't want to forget that there is emotional regulation in there. And we don't want to forget that there's metacognition in there, which is kind of. It's focused, but it's also almost chewing the cud.

Darius: Well, inhibitory control is fundamentally what is the. Yes.

Darius: Let's focus in on the yes. So inhibitory control is focusing on the.

Erica: Yes, but we're focusing on the no.

Darius: And no to what is not the yes.

Erica: Right, right. It's putting on those blinkers that we've talked. It's, it's. It's limiting our vision.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: So to speak.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: So that we're not overwhelmed.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: But there are those other two senses within inhibitory control, which is the management of them…

Darius: Thing about emotional regulation. What do you think? I think of emotional regulation with regard to inhibitory control as managing your emotions in order to stay on the yes. So you might get upset about something that's trying to rock the boat and knock you off kilter and distract you and pull you away. It could also be the other

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Darius: way of emotional regulation in terms of managing your emotions to drive you towards wanting the yes.

Erica: Right. Yeah. And then, of course, you know, the metacognition, which is, I guess you are focusing, you're going deeper. And metacognition is really kind of that chewing of the cud. It's more of the processing. It's interesting. I think there's processing that happens in all three. Working memory and cognitive flexibility. There's just a lot of processing going on. And, and processing is a combination of this no and the yes.

Darius: An analogy that I would use. I often find sailing a very useful analogy for myself. And I know a lot of people listening might not be sailors, but they've been on the boat. They've got the idea of how a boat works. I think of working memory. Filter, focus and adapt as three characters on the boat. Okay. So working memory is like the lookout at the front of the boat looking out for useful information. Key waypoints, rocks, buoys, buoys, you know.

Erica: Right. So that's, that's the funnel piece.

Darius: That's the filtering. Funnel coming.

Erica: Funnel filter.

Darius: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then. And then the working memory shouts back to the person on the tiller, the. The wheel or the rudder and saying, oh, there's a boat ahead of us. We're. We're just about to get. We're nearing a boat. Watch out for that boat. And the person on the tiller is saying, well, we're going in that direction, but there's a boat there. So I'll just move over this way a little bit and then come back on. That's inhibitory control. That's staying on course, holding your course, staying focused on. Yes. We are going to this destination. I'm going to get us to the destination.

Erica: Cognitive flexibility, staying on your path is.

Darius: On course, you know, how do you steer the course? And then cognitive flexibility is the ability to say, oh my goodness, the wind has blown us this way, or the tide is pushed as this way. I've looked at the map and I've said, I know we think we're here, but actually on the map we've been pushed over here. So we need to change our course to compensate for that. And that's cognitive flexibility, that ability to adapt to get to where you want to go as circumstances change. And so that's like the chart reader, the strategist on the boat, but it doesn't stop there. Those are three crew members. Then there's the captain. And the captain is the metacognition. The captain is. I have decided that we are heading to this port destination. This is our goal. The person on the helm, the cognitive inhibitory control is saying, right, that's my next waypoint. But the captain is holding a much bigger view of what's happening in the whole landscape of things and deciding the destination.

Erica: I might put the captain in the area of higher-level executive functions, but I think metacognition is kind of a higher. I think of it as like if you think of Snakes and Ladders. Did you ever play that game?

Darius: Yeah, yeah.

Erica: Like metacognition. Metacognition is like a. Is a ladder to higher level executive functions.

Darius: Oh, so you're thinking of metacognition as joining all of those three together suddenly to give you a boost, like a turbo boost up.

Erica: It's just. Yeah, it's. It's a ladder. It's a ladder.

Darius: Okay.

Erica: I love that game, Snakes and Ladders when I was a kid. But yeah, it's interesting. So let's.

Darius: Why is it a ladder? Go into that a little bit more because I'm quite intrigued by that. Why is it, why do you characterize it as a ladder?

Erica: Because it's kind of deep processing. It's a ladder into long term memory. It's a ladder of processing information utilizing the tools of working memory. And then you have to use the higher-level executive functioning skills like planning, time management, organization. So I. It's an interesting concept, metacognition. And traditionally they put it. I've seen it categorized under inhibitory control, which is really interesting because you could argue that it could be placed in any one of them. But it's really kind of just this. To me, it's like a little quick elevator trip into higher level executive functions. Okay, we have to Kind of use some of those. Those skills.

Darius: Okay, so inhibitory control in this analogy is you're steering the. The car or steering the boat and you're staying on track to your destination.

Erica: Staying on your path.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: If you go with the hiking metaphor.

Darius: So you're basically saying, yes, yes, this is my destination.

Erica: No, no, no, no, no, no.

Darius: If I'm driving along, it's

00:35:00

Darius: kind of like, oh, there's a nice ice cream shop. Let's stop. And it's like, no, no, we're keeping on going. Or, oh, there's a nice, you know, rainbow in the sky. And then your steering goes off because you're looking off the road and it's like, no, no, you're. You're focusing in on the road and.

Erica: Yeah, so let's go into the. The no. Of cognitive flexibility, because that's interesting, because a lot of people that are very rigid thinkers, they're over knowing.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: They're over knowing. They're saying, no, no, no, no, no. This is the only way. This is my way. I don't even want to look at other ways of doing it. But you can always flip it and say, they're just saying, yes, yes, yes, my way is the only way. You know, it's all in how you. You think about it.

Darius: There's an interesting take on this, which is if you say no to unnecessary things, then you increase your capacity to be flexible and adapt. So, like, let's say you're. You're staying focused on your lane; you're saying no to a number of things so you can achieve your goal and your destination. There's an aspect of that that gives you a little bit more cognitive space to if something does happen, you've got some cognitive space to adapt. I think there's something, some element of that with that gives you cognitive flexibility. I think you still need that default desire to be cognitively flexible. But I think let's assume you've got that default desire to be cognitively flexible and you practice that. You can be so overwhelmed with so many options and you're saying yes to everything that you can't adapt. You're just saying yes to everything, and you're just being led.

Erica: Well, you ultimately, in the beginning, you say yes, and then you make a choice, and you say no. Because really what you're doing is you're looking at, all right, what are all the different options? And you're looking at all the different options to choose one.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: What is the best solution to this problem? You have to look at many different ones. And looking at different perspectives is so interesting. I got my coaching certification and one of the activities that they did with us that I really, really loved. And I'm like, oh my God, this is a cognitive flexibility activity. Was having a problem discussing a problem with somebody and then investigating it from different perspectives. So here's your problem. Okay. How do you think your mother would view that? How do you think your dog would view that? How do you think God would view that? How do you think a table you can get even get into inanimate objects. And it's a fun activity. But it's really interesting how when you fully go into these different perspectives, you find these little gems and then ultimately you make your decision on what you're going to do. But it opens you up to possibilities so that you can get out of perhaps a bottleneck or a. You're just feeling like you can't move through something. Looking at the different perspectives. But every perspective is made up of yes and nos. A perspective is a perspective and it's blocking out all the other perspectives. But ultimately, in order to be cognitively flexible, we have to open up to the yeses to then then say no again.

Darius: So you basically looking at it through multiple perspectives. And once you've sort of done this 360 scan from different perspectives.

Erica: Yes.

Darius: You can then come down and make a decision. Right. Okay. We're going to adjust our course and go in this direction.

Erica: Right.

Darius: Because you can't do all directions all at once.

Erica: Right. I'm going to take the wisdom. Take the wisdom. And perhaps no one of them is the right course. It could be a combination of them that lead you somewhere very new or that trigger a creative new idea. But it's just, it's interesting how when you really look at all of these different viewpoints, it really can guide you to something out of the box, which is just so refreshing.

Darius: I did this exercise with AI that relates to this because you can ask AI to look at the same thing from a different perspective.

Erica: Yeah.

Darius: Say, you know, here's a scenario. Look at this as if you're my mom. Look at this as if you're my boss. Look at this as if you're a table. And all of those different examples that you gave, you

00:40:00

Darius: could ask an AI to take on that role. And it's fascinating because they can give you that feedback and then it can give you that feedback. And then you look at it and you go; that's an interesting perspective. And then another perspective, another. And a practical application for that for cognitive flexibility. Here is, let's say you're going to write a letter to someone or a document to someone you know, and it's important and you want to be persuasive. Let's say a blog post. Okay. Or a letter, you might write that letter, and your first thinking is, how would this letter look like to someone from a grammatical point of view, you know, decent English. And you look at it and you. And it goes through it and goes, well, you know, from a decent English point of view. Proof, read it. This is what it would look like. Oh yeah, that is what it would look like. Great. Okay. So it's acceptable from a presentable, from a grammatical point of view. But then you could ask AI to say, look, this is my ideal reader, you know, like an 18-year-old student at university who's got dyslexia and ADHD and is looking for some software that can help them with their note taking skills. For example, if I take an Ivy example, what would they think of this document? And they, and if he could look through it and go, oh, they would like this, but they wouldn't like that, that would seem a bit confusing, etc. Oh, that's interesting. And then you'd say, if you were the student's parent and you came across this document, what would your take be on it? Oh, well, if I was a parent. If you were a dyslexia assessor, what would your take be on it? If you were the father? If you were whoever. Do you know?

Erica: Yeah, Goblin Tools has that.

Darius: Oh really?

Erica: Yeah. I forget which one it is, but there is one that will kind of help you to look at different perspectives and which is really cool. But you know, this makes me think of a story sometimes. The answer is right there, right? It's right there and we're not seeing it.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: And sometimes it's not even that you're cognitively inflexible. It's just like it just didn't dawn on you. And if you're comfortable hearing different perspectives, it can really assist you. And I'll give you a funny story which is I have this big half-moon window right in front of me and there are times, there's a time of year where the light comes through the window and it blinds me, but it's only, it's like late spring, early summer, and it happens for about two months. And so every year I'd be like, okay, I've got to put something in the window. So I'm sure you remember this happening, right. And I'VE got to put something in the window to block it so that I can kind of hide myself behind the shadow of that thing and have. Have come up with so many different strategies of putting. Oh, and buying things and making things out of cardboard and all of these funny things. And then one of these days, one day I walked into my office, and I was like, oh, my God, I have a. I have a screen that I use for watching movies. It's right over here. And all I ever had to do was pull the screen down. And I was just. And when I realized that I'd been, like, brainstorming this and buying all of these things and doing all of this stuff, thinking, oh, this is being so creative, and that's a cool idea, and I could do this and this. All along, the solution was right there, but it was a solution for another purpose. But it's interesting how if we can be cognitively flexible, sometimes there's those moments where we're like, there's just no easy solution, when there actually is. And I think AI is a really cool tool for being cognitively flexible. And particularly in those moments when we get something that triggers us. Because when we get triggered, we become cognitively inflexible. Because we are triggered, we're in a state of an emotional reaction, and we're not as open.

Darius: Yeah. So in a way, the. The title of this podcast is Learning to say no. Or our working title at the moment. I don't know what the f***.

Erica: Right? We could change it.

Darius: We could change it. But our working title is Learning to say no. But the real question here is Learning to say no to what? Okay, so in the working memory realm, it's learning to say no to the packaging, the padding. In the inhibitory control realm, it's learning to say no to anything that takes you away from your. Your destination, your path.

Erica: Right, right, right.

Darius: And in the cognitively flexible, what are we learning to say no to?

Erica: Our own stuck limitations, Our own stuckness. Right. We're learning

00:45:00

Erica: to look at the maps. We're learning to pull out the map and saying, oh, what are all the possibilities?

Darius: So we're saying yes to this 360 view of the map and kind of seeing it from different perspectives. So we're saying yes to different perspectives.

Erica: Or you could say, I'm saying no to my. I'm willing to consider opening. I'm at a crossroads, and I'm willing to consider a new path.

Darius: So you're saying no.

Erica: No to limitations. Are you saying that? Yes. I mean, you can turn it around and, well, no, let's call no. Yes, and yes.

Darius: No, no. But in that, in this, let's use it for. It's. You're saying yes to seeing the possibilities and the options, but you're saying no to this kind of. It's got to be my way.

Erica: It's saying, no, it's not working. It's not. It's not working.

Darius: I think sometimes one of the problems with cognitive flexibility is cognitive inflexibility, is. It's got to be my way. Yeah, it's got to be my way. I've decided this is the route we're taking. This is what we're doing. But then someone on the front of the boat saying, yeah, I know this is the route we're taking. I know what your map's saying, but there's a big rock in the way and we're just about to hit it.

Erica: It's a waterfall coming.

Darius: Can we please change direction? No, no. You know, it's kind of like, what. What would that be saying? Oh, I suppose you can say no to stubbornness or no to.

Erica: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stuckness. Stubbornness. Stuckness. You're saying, no, I'm not. I'm not going to be unconscious anymore. I'm going to be conscious.

Darius: Yeah. And often it's. It's. It's a moment, I suppose, with cognitive flexibility is allowing you a moment to just say, let's take a helicopter view of this. Let's just do a quick scan. Let's just check that we're on the right direction here. If there's any adjustments being made. We're not saying that we have to change every single time. We're just saying we're open to changing direction if it's absolutely needed.

Erica: Yeah. So, you know, it's. Life is all about yeses and no's, and executive functioning is. Helps us to decide when we need to pick up the map. Executive functioning helps us decide when we need to focus, when we need to filter.

Darius: I think I've got it.

Erica: Okay.

Darius: Saying no to assumptions. Okay. Because often when you're cognitively inflexible or you've made an assumption, okay, you've assumed that the path is clear, you're on the boat. I've looked on the map. It's clear from here to there. But then something shows up and there's a rock in the way, and you're like, no, no, there can't be a rock in the way. There's no rock on the chart. But then someone goes, oh, but I think the wind and the current has pushed us to the left there. And that's why the rocks there were not where we thought we were. We have made the ground.

Erica: That's cool. And, you know, there is that expression about assumptions.

Darius: Assumptions make an a** of you and me. Is that the expression?

Erica: Right. Well, and this is the thing, is that we just get so. We're so rigid.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: We're so rigid that we don't take into consideration that kind of like the butterfly effect. I love James. I think it's James Gleek. I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name right, but he. He talks about how a butterfly flapping its wings in China can affect the weather in New York the next day. I mean, there's just. There's just too. You. If you're too rigid about your thinking, you're not taking into consideration all of the little things that can. That are constantly changing the. The world around us so that we're always having to adapt. Right.

Darius: Yeah. Okay. So let's say we're working through this as we're talking. That's one of the reasons why we do this podcast, Erica, isn't it? We talk through our thoughts and our experiences and so on, and it grows into something. And I think if I was to summarize this for me. Working memory. Working with your working memory and learning to say no is saying no to packaging, padding, inhibitory control is no to distractions, and cognitive flexibility is no to assumptions.

Erica: Okay.

Darius: No packaging, no distractions, no assumptions. And in doing so, you're working with your executive functions of working memory, inhibitory control, and cognitive flexibility.

Erica: Very nicely said.

Darius: One of the things that comes to mind is no distractions. I think we need to talk about the mobile phone and notifications. I mean, one of the biggest problems with affecting executive function is being distracted by notifications. You know,

00:50:00

Darius: a slack notification, an email notification, text notification, a WhatsApp notification, a weather notification, whatever it is, all these notifications must stop in order for you to get stuff done. Except for the notifications. You really need to be interrupted with.

Erica: Technology is really interrupting. It's really changed our cognition. And I notice in the morning it's really hard to resist just looking on my computer.

Darius: Just moment is.

Erica: And then. And then the times when I do do that, then I'm like, oh no, I had an appointment at 8:30 and I didn't look at it till 9. So it's like there again, there's. There's a fine line between saying no and yes. It's really infiltrated into our systems, and we've become dependent on it. And maybe that's something, is that we have to be careful not to become overly dependent on technology because, yeah, it kind of takes over. But yes, I agree with you. There's such a fine line between blocking these things and not blocking and figuring out which are the ones that you are willing to let interrupt your day and which are the ones that are not allowed to interrupt your day. But it's interesting because you know, of course, the whole thing about technologies, it brings the world into your home and the world is saying, look at me, look at me, do this, buy this. And they've done all the research to figure out how to make it addictive and attractive and alluring. And so it's really taxing our ability to fully be the conductor, fully conduct our executive functioning skills. Because they're like all these little trolls out there.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: Trying to pull us into their shop or whatever.

Darius: Yeah. It's like you're driving this car and there's, you know, this sign suddenly pops up and you know, distracts you from the road. Another sign, another sign.

Erica: Sometimes it even grabs the wheel out of your hand.

Darius: That's right. Ye, yeah. Or, or, or it flutters across your windscreen and gets in your way. And so.

Erica: Well, you could think of it as like, like one of these, these cars that drives for you. You've decided to get one of these amazing cars that can drive for you. And there are times that you want to drive and there are times where it wants to drive and you're like fighting with it.

Darius: Well, I do that on my Tesla quite a lot. You know, I'm driving on the Tesla. I've got it on, on self-driving and it, I want to move off a lane and I have to kind of force it sometimes. No, I do want to move past this lane anyway. But the thing I would highly recommend anyone who's listening is to, if you've got an iPhone, swipe up on your iPhone, go to Settings, scroll down until you see the red notifications icon and then go through every single app that you've got. Those 20 or 30 apps in there, switch notifications off for every single one of them and only keep the notifications on for like text messages and phone calls or something like that where people really need to break through to you. You know, switch off notifications for your emails for WhatsApp for.

Erica: You can pick the people that are allowed to interrupt you.

Darius: You can. Yes. So if you can take control of your notifications like today. Right now, that will save so much of. Save you so much time and distraction and enhance your executive functions really quickly. That's one way of saying no. Say no to notifications.

Erica: No to. To. Right. Unless they're the notifications that. That you need.

Darius: Yes. Say yes to notifications that are essential.

Erica: There you go.

Darius: Behind you. And no to all other general notifications.

Erica: The distractors, they are.

Darius: Yeah.

Erica: Yeah. Distraction is not something we want. I'm working with a student right now that is just so lost in distractions. And what I was telling him was that really what we want is we don't want distractions. We want freedom. And if you could look at it, because. Because I think so many people are like, oh, you've got to manage your distractions. And I said, instead of saying managing your distractions, how about just choosing freedom?

Darius: I love it.

Erica: We have to be cognitively flexible about how we word this, because if we're always saying, turn off your notifications, it's shoulding. It's annoying. But if we can say, well, what would you like? Do you want to be constantly interrupted? Or would you like freedom? And if you're choosing freedom, then you can limit your notifications so

00:55:00

Erica: that they're not taking over your life.

Darius: Yes. Yes. Because notifications are a form of control, which is taking away your freedom. Whereas. And. And. Yeah, I love it. That's brilliant.

Erica: Yeah. Well, I think this is a great place to stop. So this was such an interesting discussion, and I'll. I guess you guys will all figure out whether we change the title or not. And we very well might, will discuss this after we finish our podcast.

Darius: Yes.

Erica: Yeah.

Darius: So, Erica, until next time. It's been a great chat.

Erica: It has been a great chat. Until next time.

Darius: Bye.

Erica: Bye. Sponsored by the Executive Functioning Remedial Assessment, an online tool that quickly identifies challenges and delivers targeted strategies for success.

Darius: Sponsored by ivvi. Imagine turning your meeting's audio into a live mind map instantly so you remember what matters. It's ideal for students and managers with dyslexia or adhd. Try ivvi for free now at Ivy App. That's ivvi.app. Thank you for joining us at the Executive Function Brain Trainer podcast.

Erica: Check out our show notes for links and resources and follow us on social media.

00:56:17

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Episode 84: Executive Functions and The Power of No

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